Skuderian Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Hi! Would it be possible to have more pilots of one nation? Fatigue gain for better pilots is so high that Pilots have to rest 5 or more missions, that is impossible with only 4 leaders per nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuroi neko Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I had the same issue with my top aces. Maybe another (simpler?) solution would be to adjust the fatigue computation to allow a set of high level pilots to rest a bit faster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 That's probably more a question for Dan to answer, but it is an intentional part of the design that pilots are occasionally forced to fly while fatigued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Nope, we WANT you guys to fly with fatigued pilots once in a while. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skuderian Posted October 16, 2005 Author Share Posted October 16, 2005 Hi! Originally posted by Moon: Nope, we WANT you guys to fly with fatigued pilots once in a while. Martin And why? Flying against not so good humans is ok, than it makes sense to be more equal. But against bots with 11x Skills, 9x draw card? Should we delete one pair of our pilots to play 10 battles in a row with newbies to reduce fatigue of the expert pilots. I dont see any sense behind this rule... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuroi neko Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I think I get the idea, but as it is now, fatigue only becomes an issue with high-level pilots. Up to about 800 points you wont have to fly with fatigued pilots except if you really had 2 or 3 major defeats in a row. Above 1.5K XP, your pilots will be fatigued even when flying missions with average results. A single defeat and the element requires 2 or 3 missions by others to rest. Two defeats in a row and you're forced to fly with fatigued pilots. 3 defeats in a row and you will barely manage to fly with rested pilots ever again . Don't get me wrong: I do not question the design choice here, I'm just pointing out a possible need for a few tweaks. And by the way, with the fatigue only affecting leaders, gameplay gets a bit imbalanced. More often than not, the leader will go down and a fresh wingman will finish the mission. Hurts the role playing a bit, I think. That, I admit, is more of a design choice questioning . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Occaisionally would be fine - but all the time is a bit of a hassle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Another Question, Historically, how often did pilots get shot down anyway? Seems to me that good pilots didnt always face the best of the best of the enemy, otherwise the mortality rate would have been 99%. Cannot for the life of me figure why fatigue is so brutal. I can see having to fly fatigued occassionally but ALWAYS fatigued isnt even rational. If it takes 6 missions in a row from other pilots to reduce fatigue, how can that be historical. Do these guys not get any R&R? -Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 It's a game mechanic Remember this isn't a flight sim - it's a sort of RPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Mike is correct. It is just a game mechanic. We found that without fatigue, players would pretty much fly the same pilot over and over until they had maxxed out, or been killed. The fatigue system forces players to rotate through a set of pilots and develop them as a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skuderian Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 Hi! Originally posted by bartbert: The fatigue system forces players to rotate through a set of pilots and develop them as a group. I am with you, BUT with my best pilot I gain around 130 fatigue points per missions if I shoot down both enemy planes, without beeing damaged myself. This means that I have -8 Airframe, -2 performance, -2 bursts, -2 Horsepower. And I have to wait 4-5 successfull missions of other planes until I can play with this leader again. For lowlevel, midlevel pilots and in the campaign game fatigue works nice, but for toppilots (Value 50+) it does not work. This should be changed, maybe with a maximum fatigue a pilot can gain per flight. (50 undamaged, 60 damaged, 70 bailing out) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistura Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 You could have a counter or something that records missions rested. If you have 3 missions flown by other pilots all fatigue is removed. If the player flys him early he keeps the fatigue up to that point, and must start over waiting 3 missions to get it removed. That would force players to use other pilots without resorting to one set of kill me pilots to rest up the aces. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Mind you this all adds up to a reason to buy "Ironman"! Perhaps the basis for fatigue is wrong? I would rather see it as a combination of how much work the pilot does, and how much damage he suffers or how often he gets shot at - so fatigue should be based on how many cards you play rather than how new or old you are. More experienced pilots will usually get more fatigure because they're playing bigger aircraft with more cards - simulating longer higher missions perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Just to throw in something here for discussion/consideration... please keep in mind that there are DIF players out there of varying skill levels. For somebody who wins most of his dogfights, fatigue might only become an issue at the higher levels. For others, they might struggle with it from game one. This is something that is not easy to balance and we've had a number of adjustments during beta testing already. And who knows... we might make some more (kicking around ideas internally right now), but stuff like this has to be thought through carefully. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I don't agree that for top Pilots (50+) the fatigue model doesn't work. I have a set 50+, 50+, 40+ and 15+ and I have only had to fly fatigued once or twice IIRC, though flown more by choice obviously. It keeps you honest! Usually after 2-4 missions the Pilots are totally rested. I'm not sure why the outcry. I think Fatigue is an excellent design feature as is and makes sense realistically. It's well known that combat experience isn't an expotential curve, there are many examples from WWII showing the weariness, complacency, caution etc of veterans with time and from more combat. And from the game viewpoint, the roleplaying aspect of managing your Pilots through rotation is simple but effective. At some point that Ace will either retire voluntarily or be killed. Again seems realistic to me Ron Edit: Oh yes perhaps a valid reason to purchase Iron Man if fatigue gets to be that much of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuroi neko Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 That makes sense too, Ron. I think fatigue is a rather complicated issue, especially since we dont really know how it is computed, how much the relative experience levels of different elements or mission success/failure margins influence the evolution. However, I like StalinsO's idea of basing (even partially) fatigue on what actually happened in the game. Aces have more options, which usually leads to more cards played, and would thus be more likely to get fatigued. Knowing that playing a lot of cards or some specific ones, taking damage, etc. would increase fatigue could add some tactical options, like choosing to fly to the limits and be exhausted or be more cautious to remain in good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Kuroio the current fatigue model seems to be based around the pilot's "point value" - or at least I've noticed that pilots flying without combat always seem to get as much fatigue as their points. I note that campaigns have a very simple fatigue model regardless of pilot experience or length of campaign - 9 pts for flying, + 9 for getting damaged or +18 for getting shot down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Yes, we were able to use a simplified fatigue model for campaigns because campaigns have the concept of "Turns". If your pilot sits out one turn, you get back two levels (18 points) worth of fatigue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Is ther that much difference between "turns" in the campaign and "missions" in the game? To mee they seem very similar in concept - you gotta sit a number of them out to recover fatigue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 One reason I might suffer a bit more from fatigue is that I often get games failing to start properly - this gives that pilot fatigue, but doesn't reduce the fatigue of any of hte others. 3 or 4 of these in a row is not uncommon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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