New gamer....what to do about Spain

[voncasey]

Hi

just returned to the game, haven't been on since SC1

Current player vs player game and i am axis, july 40, italy just joined and my Kriegsmarine is in ruins due to UK massing all ships/sub around the island but i think they lost 1 carrier and a couple cruisers

i am about to take Paris as it is surrounded and only has a corps defending

axis has lvl 1 air, lvl 1 heavy tanks, lvl 1 all inf boosts

uk has lvl 1 air, but not sure what else

italy has GLR 1

i was considering sealion but brought my navy in too soon

question: Spain or 'what to do next'

i placed one diplo chit on spain and got a hit for 36% about 4 turns ago so they have been 76%since that hit. what are the chances of spain coming in axis (in your guys experience) and is there some other factor that may turn them axis.........such as taking paris. as i am thinking about running through spain to Gibraltar and through the Med.

Also in the North AFrica.......is it best to ship German troops from Italy or use Italian troops or a combination as i know it is a pain to get them back to the eastern front in time for Barbarossa

basically, do i need to waste another chit on spain and hope it hits and looking for general advice

thanks

[Terif]

- since you already got a mega-hit in Spain: put in 5 german chits + 3 italian ones and it will join nearly for sure now (P.S.: if you want something, never put only one chit into it ). Don´t attack Vichy France before Spain has joined.

- Africa: either you ignore it and use all troops against Russia, or you send the proper forces to be able to conquer it: i.e. german HQ + minimum 4 land units (via Italy - the italian navy clears the seapath for them to Africa). If UK defends Egypt then send another 2 armies/tanks (or more if necessary) and your airfleets. Then you can conquer Africa + Middle East till long before Barbarossa - the forces you sent are needed to protect Middle East against the Russians anyway except for the airfleets, which means they will be missing for Barbarossa in any case if you go for Africa (that´s why ignoring Africa is also an option).

[SeaMonkey]

Terif is right, if you really want it...do it.

But to let SC take you where it wants to go, diversify your investments.

Put 1 chit in the things that you would like. When you get a hit follow up with additional investment and pursue the strategy that SC gives you.

Later as the game progresses into 45, 46, 47, you'll be investing in most everything anyway. Most countries will be conquered or joined, most units will be built, excepting naval.

Realize the beauty of SC, you can develop all kinds of different strategies, and if you prosecute them efficiently, you'll be in an enjoyable game.

Isn't that really what its all about?

[voncasey]

thanks for the quick help

you can really afford to spend $$ on all those chits (eg instead of buying up units). ive only purchased Rommel and couple corps (hard builds) as well as invested alot in techs

im assuming once units are in NA it's very difficult to get them back to Russia......even with op moves?

[Terif]

When France has fallen (standard April-May 1940) you can use the plunder to buy the missing research chits for 750 mpps (first thing is usually to buy all diplo chits) - often the plunder is enough to build already your first new units. After this Germany starts building units.

Axis have no mpps problem as long as they avoid doing beginner mistakes like attacking ships in 1940/41 with airfleets, doing naval battles and repair the own ships, researching+upgrading the italian navy , placing units at the coast so the enemy can bombard them or operating unnecessarily around .

P.S.: you can try to go for naval superiority, but this makes only sense if you can do a Sealion, otherwise you will have a problem as all those ressources you spent for your anti-ship combat will be missing in Russia and when you get no compensation in the west by conquering England. Against a beginner you can get through with a lot of things, but against a good allied player it won´t work in any case.

[ September 28, 2007, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[SeaMonkey]

Understand that the war is won or lost in the East and so is SC. That does not mean you can totally ignore the WA(western Allies).

If WA extend themselves into Scandanavia or NA(North Africa) then indeed you will have an opportunity for Sealion, just keep tabs on the RN.

You will need 5 air units and the FJ for the invasion of the British Isle, so build your air oriented units first. Even if RN stays around the Island these assets will be needed later on in the East.

The main thing is keep the WA honest in the early years and don't allow them to exploit your weaknesses dictating the initiative.

If WA defend the Island, then move to NA and Mideast and be in position with the appropriate assets for a southerly thrust into the USSR via Caucasus.

Do not allow WA to divert you from the USSR early invasion, May 41. You must take at least Kiev and Smolensk by the first winter, after that it will depend on Red Army deployments, but you'll at least be in position to move north, south or east in the next campaign season.

Now you have your marching orders....get after it!

[Col. Gen. Guderian]

I was wondering about Spain myself, if it is worth investing all your chits in it? What I usually would do is invest a German chit in Norway and Sweden each to safeguard those convoys and I would usually invest 2 more in Iraq in anticipation of the Axis coup there. Is it worth investing all 5 German chits in it regardless of whether or not you've already had a big hit with it? That costs 375 mpps which is quite a lot, then again I suppose getting Spain means an extra 40 MPPs per turn,not including Portugal plus extra plunder which effectively makes it an extra 56 MPPs per turn. Then there's also the strategic options given, with Gibraltar etc. etc.

As for North Africa, I've always found it difficult to know what to do with it as Axis. If you leave it alone, it will certainly be taken, but backing it up seems to be such a distraction for Germany and a waste of precious MPPs. I'm beginning to think the most sensible option is to send a German engineer over to construct fortifications around Tobruk supported by an Italian HQ and then leave the Italians to their own devices. 3 Italian corps/armies with possible upgrades in IW and AT techs fortified around tobruk would surely prove a tough nut to crack?

I believe Italy's main function in the game should be to support Germany and not the other way round. It should mainly be used for it's diplomacy, for researching intelligence (would this help?) and for building units to cover Germany in the west.

P.S. Terif, how on earth do you take France by April-May???? I thought that'd only be possible with weather turned off.

[ev]

I am a strong believer in Sea Lion. The rewards of a successful Sea Lion are just too good to pass.

Sea Lion should be possible with an invasion force 1 HQ, 1 Tank, 1 Paratroop, and 4 Inf Armies. But what is most important for Sea Lion is speed and local air supremacy. For Sea Lion to work, it most get strated around August 1940. And, before that, the Axis player must have pushed all British Air Units so far back that they cannot see the Northern Coast of France. This last part is essential so that the Allied Player cannot see you amph transports.

Spain is a great option if you decide against Sea Lion. Spain gives the Axis Submarine Force a great launching padd to attack British Convoys. And, taking Gibraltar can also be very helpful...

I agree that the game will be decided in the East. But doing as much harm as possible to the Western Allies in 1939-41 is key to having your hands free against Russia.

[Terif]

@Col. Gen. Guderian:

- if Germany attacks Low Countries in turn 2, then they will be standing in front of Paris until Christmas 1939. They only have to wait till winter is over and at least mud sets in to conquer Paris. So sometimes Paris falls in February 40, usually in April . Even if Germany concentrates on Poland first, it will take LC around Christmas 1939 and since in that case firepower is much more concentrated will also reach Paris around April/May 1940 so it will fall maybe a month later or so than with an early LC attack. BTW: every experienced player conquers France in this time frame, this is not limited to me only .

- If Germany doesn´t invest chits into Spain (or Romania+Hungary), then Allies will most likely do it and this means that the minors (Romania+Hungary) will not join Axis any more (Spain <40%). So it is a must do unless you trust in your luck or the lazyness of your opponent...but usually you will then loose your allies . Investing in Spain may cost Germany some mpps, but has the advantage that it either forces UK to invest also 5 chits in Spain or if UK doesn´t, then Spain joins Axis which gives them much more troops/ressources than those few mpps for diplo chits.

- North Africa:

Only italians will never be able to hold off UK forces. If Germany doesn´t send troops + HQ, then Africa goes latest in 1941 to UK. But the question is in deed always if you as Axis are willing to send those troops or if you prefer to use them in Russia instead. Both options have their advantages and disadvantages.

[Col. Gen. Guderian]

My time table is usually to take Poland in 2 turns, then take Denmark on the third and send all the units over west on foot and be ready to invade in April. However, if the weather is muddy I usually wait another turn til May. Your strategy sounds extremely risky against any half decent opponent. Is there any major benefit to taking France early but in such a costly and sloppy fashion? Presumably this also means Denmark will have to be taken after it. I'll give it a try anyway against the comp a few times and see the results

[Col. Gen. Guderian]

BTW, how many units do you use to attack LC with then on turn 2? I wouldn't want to dilute the forces in the east too much or it could take an age to capture Poland.

[Konigs]

Little tricky here, You need Poland to fall by 3rd or 4th turn to get enough troops back to the West to press adavantage. I usually hit with all but infantry army and corp on Poland, sometimes one tank also. Then op those two or three back on turn 1. Then at end of turn two attack on Poland I send back HQ and already have a plane in place. With three units back you can hit LC on turn 2, with three and plane and HQ in place definitely hit it on turn 3 and have a few more units op back so you can press into France. By end of turn 4 you should be inside France flanking Maginot, pressed up against the line of troops in front of Paris and hoping for a clear turn, so planes you have moved into LC can do some real damage before full winter sets in. I only walk back 2 armies and the other armor corp. This seems a waste of MPPS oping around, but inreality you will keep allies from using their MPPS for many other items and with early conquest of France gives Axis many options, all stated IMHO, there are many better players that could help explain better ways.... See you..

[Terif]

There is no risk involved at all with a LC turn 2 attack :

Turn 1:

- German corps with motorization operates to the danish border to take Copenhagen next turn

- northern tank+army operate to LC border

- Königsberg army transports to LC

- both airfleets in the east move west and stay in range of Kopenhagen

- Rundstedt and his troops destroy the polish corps in front of them, the tank reaches Warsaw

Turn 2:

- Denmark is conquered: success rate 100% (defender str 3, you have 3 airfleets that have expected damage of 2 each when you support them with a HQ (don´t forget to use auto-assist for your HQs)

- LC is conquered: success rate ~98% (1 AF, tank, 2 armies, upgraded corps to attack LC and a normal corps ready to occupy Brussel...)

- In Poland the defenders around Warsaw will be destroyed and 3 tiles around the capital occupied

Turn 3:

- Warsaw falls: success rate 100%

- the first french army gets destroyed, german forces enter France.

In the following turns the original LC forces can kill a french army each turn, if you want to fasten the process up, Germany can operate some of the polish forces west. Usually several of my armies/tank move westwards by feet to save operating costs - France is very unlikely to fall before the winter unless Allies make an aggressive counterattack or make the mistake to defend at the border - additional german forces don´t really speed that up so they can walk instead of taking the train.

Nevertheless taking Poland first and marching west also has its advantages, especially if Axis have chosen to follow the historical approach as this delayed attack on LC reduces the allied mpps (readiness increase comes later).

[Konigs]

See, the very best has given us the exact blue print for early Axis success ....

[Col. Gen. Guderian]

Actually, to my amazement, I was able to take both Poland and LC on turn 2, although this is unlikely to happen if the Dutch corps is positioned to the west of the Rhine. I ignored Denmark as well.

Terif's method sounds pretty unbeatable though, and should result in lots of early plunder.

Funny, I would never have even contemplated doing it that way but I suppose it makes perfect sense because the French forces are so ill-prepared themselves.

[voncasey]

Along the lines of the spain/Med attack:

Gibraltar seems pretty reasonable attack......just pound with air, then attack with tank and army until it falls

but what about Malta........how easy is it to take. it seems my opponent operated his corps off the island so can i just amphibious attack with an IT corps or does the port need to be disabled first

i faintly remember trying to land a corps on an empty malta in the past and it wouldn't unload but it think that was sc1

[arado234]

voncasey if malta is empty all you have to do is amphib.invade it.You cannot transport onto the island or any spot for that matter untill you own the port in question.

Malta is pretty hard to take even if the allied player only has a bomber on it.It takes quite a bit of pounding and making sure you keep the port at zero so the unit on malta cannot be re enforced.Watch out for the allied ships that are sure to attack if you use your italian ships to hit the port.If you are planning to attack malta from the very beginning of the game you can build the four german rockets and they will wipe it out.Just as rambo or terif.

[voncasey]

thanks

pounded the port but now he has a corps there so i dont think ill waste my time at this point

can the uk op move in and out of malta?? or do they have to float there?

[Guest Mike]

The can op there as long as the city is at str 5 or above - theat's why you need strategic assets to attack it - to drop it below 5 so they can't just op in fresh units. If you get it to 0 then they can't reinforce either, and it becomes a lot easier to take!

[voncasey]

can you op a bomber into malta or do you need to op it to NA then fly it in?

[MJY]

Hey all,

This thread suggests a number of lines of play for the Axis early in the game. What I have not seen, is a detailed discussion of Allied responses. What do the "experts" recommend as the best defence for the Allies early in the game -- especially in the face of the recommended early attacks against Denmark and the Low Countries.

[Guest Mike]

I don't think there's any response the allies can make - they an take Norway and perhaps Nth Africa and that's about it - they simply lack the means to do much more.

[arado234]

voncasey you can opt the bomber right on to malta.

[Liam]

Originally posted by MJY:

Hey all,

This thread suggests a number of lines of play for the Axis early in the game. What I have not seen, is a detailed discussion of Allied responses. What do the "experts" recommend as the best defence for the Allies early in the game -- especially in the face of the recommended early attacks against Denmark and the Low Countries.

Well, this is all expected the Germans have 2 HQs, 2 Tanks, 3 Airfleets and a lot of Corps and Armies... Plus few things to do with them, it's not like it's 1933 and the Germans are Arming, they need to expand fast and they will do it regardless of anything!

However, as the British, you have an HQ in North Africa, a Tank that at arrives with 2 airfleets by the end of '40

This is however a bit short, but your Navy allows you a certian amount of Naval Mobility and flexability with your operations... You can choose to take One Theatre after you've mastered the tactics, but you must choose. North Africa, Scandanavia, or perhaps hold back and conserve energy for an early D-Day? Or take the iniative if the Axis make an error somewhere???

Anything is possible, since you're the Master and Commander

Personally I favor practicing each idea... As the UK I can usually have around 2 HQs by Summer of '42 and upgraded LR fighters with a lot of firepower on land... Generally by this point I'll spit out another Fighter and few armies send them into a Theatre and with US Support Create a Killing Zone

Let the USSR do the job on Land and kill off the Axis, but let the Western Allies zapp them of their resources where ever and whenever possible... The most efficient use of these capabilities is usually the winner, not always but usually Good Luck and welcome to SC2