Axis Scorched Earth Option for Russian Cities

[Edwin P.]

I would like to see the Axis units have the option to conduct a voluntary scorched earth policy in Russia.

Essentially, a unit in a city hex can use all of its movement points to perfrom an Action: Raze City. This would essentially reduce the value of the value to the city to 0 and the city would recover at its normal rate of 1 point per turn.

Axis units might use this to slow a Russian advance in the later stages of the game. Of course any unit doing this would deprive surrounding friendly units of a source of supply.

[J P Wagner]

Edwin, you have come up with some good suggestions but I think at times you are veering away from Hubert's axiom of K.I.S.S. when it comes to gameplay.......

[pzgndr]

C'mon JP, you don't want Hubert to take away the scorched earth options in the NEW! Editor for each individual country, do you??

[J P Wagner]

...this is the cunundrum I'm facing as I work on my Russian Civil War Campaign (Yup, though blind and dumb to alot of what the editor has to offer, I'm working on the OOB and map as we speak..er...type)...there are elements in the Russian Civil War that would not apply to SC2, such as Cavalry units, armored trains, rail lines and yes scorched earth would also apply to the Reds and Whites, which would need Edwin's suggestion..I'm trying to figure out work arounds to these and other gameplay decisions while wondering if the editor would have elements in it that are not in the main SC2 game, and simply adjust my thinking once we have the editor available...if indeed there will be editor options available which are not in the SC2 game, then by all means let me remove my foot from my mouth, beg apologies to Edwin, and second the need to bring scorched earth for the Axis on!!!!...

[ May 15, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]

[Roosevelt45]

I've always wondered why only the Russians get the scorched earth option.

The germans also destroyed their own cities and industry in 1944-1945 when the allies started to take in German cities.

[pzgndr]

On the other hand, Edwin HAS ... at times ... veered far far away from the KISS axiom. But this time he's close enough.

For Russian Civil War and others, there will have to be various workarounds and adjustments made. For cavalry, I believe we may get an option to rename unit types. That way, Tank Groups could very well become Cavalry, unit values adjusted appropriately, and new icons placed in the bitmaps file. We'll have to be careful regarding research effects, since Heavy Tanks should still affect the Tank Groups "slot", but tank attack/defense can easily become cavalry attack/defense and work the same way. We'll have to experiment when the time comes. Either way, I foresee a lot of interesting games being spawned with the SC2 editor.

[J P Wagner]

Regarding research in the Russian Civil War, my initial thought was not really having it as there was not any actual tech research going on...tanks for example were supplied by the Allies for the Whites and many armored units were in fact armored cars...if the MMP's could be set at an absurdly high amount in the investment pool (9999 mmp's for one tech chit) this would in effect prevent players or the AI from using it...the same can be applied to unit builds as there would be some anachronistic units in the Civil War if their MMP price were left at SC2 standards...so while I would have available a low tech fighter unit in the game which would have very limited offensive ability, I would want bomber mmp costs to again be at 9999 to block their purchase...I know I'm assuming (no, make the presuming, so I don't have someone throw that Felix Unger comeback at me) alot about the editor capabilities here, but ... what the hell!

[Edwin P.]

I kinda through ideas out, and some stick, others stink on reflection, others veer "far far away" from KISS but others end up starting a most interesting thread.

I suggested the scorched earth action option for units as this was a policy followed by many armies when advancing and retreating, from the Russians and Germans in WWII back to the Vandals and Huns during the Decline of Rome. I also needed a voluntary (not automatic) scorched earth option for some of my planned scenarios.

As for the SC2 editor I am looking forward to creating a scenario on the Korean War, D-Day modeled after the Avalon Hill Game (with no tech advances), the US Civil War and one strategic level game about Ancient Rome. I will probably start with the D-Day Scenario (the Axis knows an invasion is coming but not where) and then move onto Korea.

One problem that I am contemplating is a way around is a way to create mountain hexes that are not passable to Armor but are passable to infantry, for my Korean War Scenario at 10miles per title.

As JP Wagner also suggested, I would also like to see the editor have the option to draw rail lines between cities and allowing players to restict operational moves to these rail lines. Why? at large scales rail hubs were very important to the movement of troops and supplies - especially during the American Civil War and the invasion of Russia.

[ May 15, 2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

JP Wagner, the editor will allow you to set the maximum build level for each type of unit by country. Thus you can set the bomber limit to zero. You can also set bomber research limit to zero. This will prevent the AI or human players from building or researching this type of unit.

In my notes for my Ancient Age of Rome scenario I am planning to set Rockets to Zero, and rename Battleships as War Galleys and disable subs and bombers and airfleets, along with operational moves. As for research, most options will be disabled as technological advances during the era was quite limited.

[ May 15, 2004, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[J P Wagner]

Thanks Edwin for the answer...that will make it easier to impliment a realistic OOB...wouldn't be fun to have your opponent send a Panzer Division into Gettysburg now would it...

[Edwin P.]

Not only that, it should lead to an improved AI. In SC1 Russia would research Rockets but never build any, and Italy would research Armor and sometimes not research Anti-Tank.

Now in the new game, I can set Italy to only research Anti-Tank and Gun-Laying Radar.

Question - Can I add a script that will set the Italian research limit for gun-laying radar to zero and reclaim any tech chits in that area IF Italy has Fewer than X Surface ships? You don't want the AI researching something if it will never build any new units of that type, and Italy could never afford to build new surface ships.

[pzgndr]

I kinda through ideas out, and some stick, others stink on reflection, others veer "far far away" from KISS but others end up starting a most interesting thread.

True enough. We ALL seem to have an idea track record of less than 100%. We can only suggest and hope for the best.

Question - Can I add a script that will set the Italy research limit

I doubt that the AI scripts will be that specific. However, it is possible with the research editor to adjust max levels for specific techs to zero. So you could restrict Italy from researching certain techs, therefore the AI would not go there.

[ev]

Originally posted by J P Wagner:

...this is the cunundrum I'm facing as I work on my Russian Civil War Campaign.

...anybody ever thought of making any of the following scenarios:

1. The war between China and Japan: This was a decade long struggle. It started long before Japan attacked the US. In fact, the Japanese attacked the US because the US threaten an embargo after the attrocities commited by Japanese soldiers on Chinese civilians. It involved huge armies and vast expanses of land. I only wish I knew more about it.

2. The Chinese Civil War. Another grand conflict, very close in time to WWII. ...and, again, one of those areas of history in which I am unfortunately very ignorant.

The SC2 engine seems to be a great plataform to simulate either of these conflicts. The size of the armies are probably comparable to those fighting in Europe (including Russia). The expanse of land may be even larger than that depicted in SC2, but, you would not need to represent the ocean...

Besides, developing these scenarios would be a great exercise towards "SC3: World at War". And, would greatly contribute to my education on far east history.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Japanese invasion of China and the Chinese Civil War.

Those would be excellent areas to have a module for, but I doubt many would enjoy them.

While the land area is huge, which would imply some sort of strategical or operational level game, China really doesn't have much of a chance against the Japanese. Not to mention, the internal conflict the Chinese had (the civil war between the Nationalists and Communists, which was still going on when Japan invaded).

The problem would be in how to represent the external demands that limited what Japan was able to bring to bear in China.

additional thoughts Gave this some more thought. If we expanded the area to include Russia in the North, you might just have something. Because now, you can include the Russian/Japanese conflict as well. Extend the map in the south, down to Singapore and you can include the Commonwealth as well. Putting those conflicts together with China, would give a realistic situation of what the Japanese faced. Time frame it to somewhere around Pearl Harbor, and it could actually be kinda fun, since if Japan doesn't make its objectives, it will have "lost".

Speaking of potential what ifs... how about the pre-1939 German "conquests"? I'm thinking along the lines of Czechslovakia. I may even have a S&T or Command magazine that actual put some stuff together in a scenario about this.

[ May 17, 2004, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[Edwin P.]

Or a WWI Scenario - US, UK, France/Italy, Russia vs Germany/Turkey and the Austrian Hungarian Empire - using the same map.

The key here is writing a script that will allow the Russians to sue for peace without giving Germany control of all of its cities, kinda like a Vichy France option for Russia. Say if Germany takes City X and City X or Russian loses more than x number of units then Vichy Russia Occurs - Russia Goes Neutral, Germany gains territory. Armor units would also see their movement rate reduced to equal that of Armies.

In fact, in my mind the Movement rate of armies would be reduced to 2 hexes, armor to 2 hexes and corps to 4 hexes. Aircraft would have their spotting range reduced to 3 or 4 hexes and their ground attack abilities weakened. Carriers, Bombers and Rocket units would not be allowed. Futhermore, the impact of technology advances should be severely limited in any WWI game.

Given the reduced impact of air power and recductions in movement rates any non-historical attacks on neutral nations will probably be minimized.

Any thoughts?

[ May 17, 2004, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[J P Wagner]

Well Edwin, those WWI movement costs you posted are similiar to what I am planning for the Russian Civil War Campaign but I will need to see if I keep the same scale once I plot out the map....

[Blashy]

Me = WW1 scenario and Attila vs. Rome

Edwin = Ancient Rome

JP = Russian civil war

Someone said they would work on a US civil war.

I think SC2 will have a VERY VERY long life thanks to HC listening to us nagging for a robust editor.

[With Clusters]

A WW1 game would need cheap engineering units (more than one I'd think), and cheap fortifications (to simulate the superiority of defensive capibilities vs offensive ones). No need for armor units at all either, I would think, as tanks only had a limited impact (unless you want a 'what if?' WWI...).

[Roosevelt45]

Originally posted by With Clusters:

A WW1 game would need cheap engineering units (more than one I'd think), and cheap fortifications (to simulate the superiority of defensive capibilities vs offensive ones). No need for armor units at all either, I would think, as tanks only had a limited impact (unless you want a 'what if?' WWI...).

Tanks won the war for the allies at the Western front.

But indeed there weren't very much of them.

Maybe you could write a script that only allowed the building of one tank unit per major country after a certain amount of time.

[J P Wagner]

In the Russian Civil war there were some armored divsions in the White Army; the tanks provided by the Allies....the Reds had a few captured tank and armored car divisions as well....the main "armor" unit however was the armored train, which both sides had.

My preliminary ideas concerning armor will be to have two classes, light and heavy...since I cannot have rail lines on the map and therefore cannot effectively have armored trains, the heavy armor will represent these units..at the start the Reds will have more armored trains than the Whites, while they in turn will have more light armor... also, the Reds will have the ability to purchase more heavy armor than the Whites, while they on the other hand, will be able to purchase more light armor units..there will be a cap on both units however...these units will be very expensive, which will make it imperative for both sides to declare war on the peasant provinces, to gain the necessary MPP's to maintain their war effort..the Reds in particular may be at war with Poland and The Allied Intervention Forces so they will need all the resources they can lay their hands on...anyway, these are preliminary thoughts.. we'll just have to wait and see how it will play out!