Meeting Engagement Tactics

[Red]

I was wondering what general tactics people use for Meeting Engagement Scenarios: When to deploy or not deploy smoke? Off Map artillery tactics? Probing with Armour? Any advice greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Red

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

Well this is a huge topic. How about we reduce it down to a combined arms force using the scenario defaults (ie. clear day, dry ground conditiond, village, moderate trees and small hills).

I'm no expert on this topic. It ain't mett-t or the six P's, but here it goes...

1. pick a balanced force. I think that force selection is one of best parts of the quick battles. The force should consist of sufficient infantry to cover your occupy frontage with a small force in reserve. This may only be a platoon but a reserve (even a small one) is vital in a meeting engagement.

2. Know thyself. Know the capabilities of your units. Don't expect a M10 Tank destroyer to take on infantry, or a your Panzerschrecks to run 200m across open ground.

3. Know thy enemy. Know the capabilities of the enemy. While a Panther is formidable head-on, a Stuart can kill it from a flank shot.

4. Have an educated guess where the enemy will set up and his plan. Then plan your setup accordingly.

5. have a plan of advance. use covered routes and when you need to move out in the open move FAST.

6. always, always always hide all of your units. I've had a King tiger taken out frontally by an M10 TD because I sat it in the open...serves me right.

7. recon recon recon, find out what the enemy has got before you commit the bulk of your force. There is also recon push, recon pull etc, but I'm not qualified to talk about that stuff.

8. Establish a defence line and have forward positions. This will establish a firebase and a time to aggressively counterttack the enemy.

9. When you attack, attack with a big force and attack only part of his force. Use smoke to separate the poor bloody enemy from his mates and then let him have it with everything.

10. don't occupy a flag with a whole platoon of infantry...they make great artillery targets! better to send a half-squad occupy it and have your infantry platoon in support range of the flag.

11. There's lots of other stuff, but firstly check out the various websites for tactics articles (ie. www.combathq.thegamers.net)

[Gremlin]

I think speed is generally imperative. You might sacrifice careful scouting, but you can occupy decent defensive positions around the flags first if you handle things well. A relatively static defense unfortunately makes for good arty targets, as Beer_n_Pretzels noted, but if you and the enemy close on the victory locations at the same time instead of you first, you'll have a hard time dropping arty on him, since he'll be on your doorstop, and arty is vital for any CM game, imo.

------------------

War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman

[goodwood]

it's imperative to get to the objectives first. setup defence and hold it. Also get a squad or a S/shooter as far forward as safety allows to observe, and identify your opponents approach and plan your defence. It's a lot easier to defend a patch of ground than to try and take it off the enemy. have a good well balanced force with some mobility to allow for the diversities of the ground you are fight over. I forgot to mention good arty support is essential.

[This message has been edited by goodwood (edited 12-26-2000).]

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goodwood:

it's imperative to get to the objectives first. setup defence and hold it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Goodwood, I respectfully disagree. I think it is best to ignore the flags and work out a plan the kill the enemy. Once you take out a large portion of his force, the victory locations fall to you by default. However I realise this varies depending on the type of terrain and weather conditions (heavy fog?)

[Monte99]

Well, one nice thing about occupying the victory locations ASAP: Sooner or later the enemy has to come to you, and this makes him much more predictable.

The downside, of course, is riding out the ensuing artillery barrage. So much depends on what sort of force you have, and what sort of force you're facing. The beauty of this game is that no single strategy works all the time.

------------------

"Arms are my ornaments, warfare my repose." - Don Quixote

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monte99:

The beauty of this game is that no single strategy works all the time.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That I agree on. Maybe it is better to create a plan according to your force mix and how you like to play the game. As for me, I like to recon before making any major moves, others may prefer a more aggressive approach.

[Guest Pillar]

The victory locations don't mean victory.

Forget the flags.

Just keep an eye out for the key terrain; that terrain which gives you security and firepower.

[goodwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beer_n_Pretzels:

Hi Goodwood, I respectfully disagree. I think it is best to ignore the flags and work out a plan the kill the enemy. Once you take out a large portion of his force, the victory locations fall to you by default. However I realise this varies depending on the type of terrain and weather conditions (heavy fog?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BnP,

Yep, I agree in one respect, that a plan should be devised to render the enemy ineffective, but the victory flags are the main element of the victory points why not defend from there. I not saying defend all flags, but an area that is defendable.

[Red]

Thanks for all the good replies. I am in the middle of my first meeting engagement Pbem game. I rushed to the flags and had to survive a horrendous arty barrage. Now I am getting harried on my flanks. We both had covered routes to the flags but he sat back and used recon to work out what I had and is now mounting a counter attack whereas I rushed in and am holding on...we're at turn 17 now and he is pretty much slicing and dicing but I am holding on.

Again thanks for all the advice. It will come in handy next time!

Cheers

Red

[Pain]

On maps with large hills I prefer to put my tanks behind the top of hills. This guarantees nearly 100% Hull-Down position, from where I am able to take out the enemy's tanks without any serious losses. Then I start to supress the infantry and advance with some tanks and infantry to occupy the flags. Often they are already occupied by the enemy's forces, so I use my arty and support tanks to supress, and the advancing infantry and tanks to crush him...

Works very well I think.

------------------

War is in my heart

Death is by my side!

[General Petrovsky]

Some interesting insights and conflicting doctrines here. Well I'll put my two cents in because I now have a few games under my belt. I saw above people talking about rushing to the Victory Flags, you must be newbies. Every time I've had an opponent do that I've won a total victory. You're acting as predictable as the AI and your demise will be just as predictable. I think Pillar spoke of going for the good terrain. That's the real Victory locations comrade. Forget about the flags. You can hold them for 29 turns and when you lose them in that last turn you lose the game. Find the good terrain and use it to your advantage. This isn't football where you have to rush to the end zone, this is war and the key to victory is to find, demoralize, and destroy your enemy. Use the hills and cover to your advantage to do this and in the last turn or two you can stroll to the victory flags because the enemy will be no more. I agree with the balanced force, but I'm starting to see that infantry is key to this game. My one PBEM opponent (whom I've never beaten) claims that he with the most infantry wins. Something to think about and experiment with. I'm a treadhead and am usually lured into buying big ol tanks, but one clink! and you just blew a couple of platoons worth of purchase points. In another PBEM game I'm attacking with combined arms against an all infantry force and I'm getting my ass handed to me. Every step I take there is an ambush and I've lost most of my tanks/vehicles to bazookas hiding in the trees. Quite a price difference between a couple of bazookas and tanks. Another big factor is arty, it can change the tide of battle. Don't bunch up your troops to much and don't be to anxious to shoot all yours in the first few turns, that's usually when he's on the move and you'll miss. Wait until he's settled and warm and fuzzy and lay it on him. Like one of those guys who rush the victory locations . The winner isn't the first guy to the flags, it's the last guy, remember that.

All is fair in love and war.

[Gremlin]

Well, certainly the physical locations right at the flags don't matter until the last turn, but the tactically useful terrain nearby often does, especially a town, since the buildings provide the equivalent of dug-in positions (though those have their drawbacks, if used too statically). As you say, if you beat the enemy force, taking the VL's is easy, but areas near the VL's can often be significant to that end.

It's highly debatable that infantry is the (sole) key--that depends a lot on the type of scenario and terrain. You can mop up with relatively little infantry in many circumstances, and have your head handed to you on a platter in others, as you describe.

Force composition should match the terrain, weather, and your goals. If your armor is getting blown away from treeline ambushes, I'd submit you're not using it properly and effectively. Try using half-squads to rapidly move through every tree stand and building in terrain with prime ambush spots to clear it before moving armor in. Armor and infantry work symbiotically in most CM-scale battles. The right vehicle can easily stop the advance of a platoon or even a company in some circumstances. That's a good trade.

(And no, I'm not at all saying infantry isn't important, just that it's not equally good at all things in all situations, and skillful combined arms tactics can be much superior to massed infantry attacks and give you a higher victory points ratio due to fewer casualties.)

Certainly no debate about arty's usefulness, though

------------------

War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman

[Trooper]

Your friend with the infantry may not be far off the mark.

I've a pretty good success rate with my PBEMs, and I -DO- always go for the flags at the beginning.

The difference is that I send the absolute minimum in there. Enough to point out 'Yes, these are mine' and to make him think before he himself takes up the defensive positions.

But of course, there's more than the first two turns in the game. Of course if you send everything in, they'll just get stonked by shellfire. But if you visibly have men on the flag, the onus is then on your opponent to come get them. Consider them to be a squad or two of 'bait' All the rest of your forces, which can be anywhere else on the terrain, can then be used to destroy the enemy.

NTM

------------------

The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle!

[Gremlin]

Read Sun Tzu for some classic thinking along those lines. Never reveal more than you have to.

------------------

War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman

[Guest Pillar]

"The winner isn't the first guy to the flags, it's the last guy, remember that."

Very well said. Just replace "flags" with "objectives" and you've got real life.

I disagree with your friend however. "The most infantry" is not the key to victory.

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

As for infantry, I'm in favour of a balanced force. However when building a combined force I buy the infantry first and then the supporting arms. My Battle Group is built around the infantry as these boys that form your main line of resistance, and serve as a base from which you can maneuver your other assets.

[Ezmartini]

there was a great article on infantry tactics, I think on CombatHQ (could someone tell me how to make links on this forum please? ). It explained that when your tank, one big complex machine, gets hit and non-functional, it stays that way. While some of your squadmen (12 "complex machines") go down, the remaining ones still function. You may decrease in firepower, but your team is still useful.

[Gremlin]

That's why you take extra care of your armor

To make a link, use standard html:

(a href="http://www.combathq.thegamers.net/")Combat Mission HQ(/a)

But put in "less than" symbols for the open parenthesis, and "greater than" for the close parenthesis.

[Edit: I copied the URL incorrectly. Sorry!]

------------------

War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman

[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 12-30-2000).]

[Ezmartini]

<a href="http://www.http://combathq.thegamers.net/">

Combat Mission HQ

[This message has been edited by Ezmartini (edited 12-29-2000).]

[Monte99]

One thing about getting to the flags early: It's a psychological edge. Your opponent doesn't know if you're sitting there with a split squad or an entire company, but he has to assume the worst: after all, it's YOUR flag there, not his. While ownership of the VL's is meaningless until the last turn, it's still better to have the enemy reacting to your moves, rather than the other way around.

------------------

"Arms are my ornaments, warfare my repose." - Don Quixote

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monte99:

after all, it's YOUR flag there, not his. While ownership of the VL's is meaningless until the last turn, it's still better to have the enemy reacting to your moves, rather than the other way around.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Monte99, You have a valid point. However if you are not going to occupy the flags straight up, then you should have some way of observing enemy units which are moving towards the flags. I realise that this is not always possible.

On another point I find the flags annoying and actually turn them off (shift+F) so I can concentrate on the key terrain. If you grab the key terrain and know where the enemy will advance then you are more than likely going to win the game.

[Guest Pillar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monte99:

it's still better to have the enemy reacting to your moves, rather than the other way around.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not always correct

[Gremlin]

Wholeheartedly agreed, Pillar. Let the enemy defeat himself. Sun Tzu: "That is why it is said that victory can be discerned but not manufactured. Invincibility is a matter of defense, vulnerability is a matter of attack." Sort of the Judo approach to CM

(Ezmartini, I copied that URL incorrectly in the html example above. Sorry. It should be correct now.)

------------------

War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman

[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 12-30-2000).]

[coralsaw]

In response to the original question, I find that preempting the occupation of flags with a couple of armor cars works well, as they have good speed and can delay enemy infantry.

Terrain is the strategist though.