Red Devils Review - Spoiler

[Rally]

Let me know if these types of reviews are of any interest. I thought I would post my thoughts on some of the scenarios I have played. I have played 2 vs. computer and I just started PBEM. Red Devils was the first scenario I played.

The scenario takes place in a village at night with rain - visibility is 90 meters. Very cool atmosphere. I set up as Germans in a consolidated position based around the two story victory building. There were 2 squads, 2 MG's, Company Commander, Platoon Commander in that house. The Kubelwagon and an exhausted half squad were outside the house in the back (the side of the now empty commanders billet). 1 platoon was dispersed in the two buildings near the house and 1 squad between the house and the roadblock. An MG joined one of the houses. The final platoon was put into 2 houses farther out.

The first half of the battle saw the Germans killing 2 companies of Elite Brits with very small loss. The Kubelwagon and half squad were killed by a squad that had infiltrated the commanders billet - they inflicted no damage. That squad ended up charging the two story house getting killed quickly.

After this part of the battle I figured I had damaged the Brits pretty badly and started to redeploy. After a few turns my half squad by the bridge was taken out and captured by a company of brits. I thought I would deploy a squad on the high ground overlooking the roadblock where I had a foxhole and anohter in the house closet to the bridge and wait for this company to charge me. Turns out there were not just one brit company but two. One charged while the other offered some suppressing fire. The lone squad in the house went down and the reinforcing squad I sent to help just barely took out the one brit squad who charged that position. The squad in the foxhole mutually destroyed a brit squad. Two more brit squads came at the house behind the foxhole where they almost broke through but a lone MG held the position.

At this point there were only 2 turns left - I sent 2 squads running to the bridge but the lone brit squad left made them turn around and run the other derection. The AAR showed a tactical Axis victory (66 to 34).

This scenario really boils down to close in firefighting - the visibility is only 90m. It is critical for the germans to have a lot of supporting fire. One or two german squads will have a hard time stopping a rush of one of these brit squads. I would not defend the bridge much in a PBEM game - the germans do not have enough resources. If the Brits coordinate their attack my guess is it would be devestating.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Well I don't know. I played this battle from the British side. I gave myself +25% forces and ended with a minor Allied victory with very heavy casualties. I think it could take a fair mite of skill (or a heap of luck) to play at even odds (is that an oxymoron?) and pull off a win. Seems to me that the Germans are a whole lot more alert than advertised.

Lesson: Don't believe the briefing officer! He's returning to his nice, warm sack after your planes take off.

Michael

[Maastrictian]

***SPOILER***

A good review Rally. Here are my thoughts:

I played as the Brits, with the default set up for both myself and the Germans.

Pros:

The reenforcements arriving by "para-drop" were a very cool idea and certainly added to the surprise, both for a German and a British player.

The false info in the British briefing about armored reenforcement had me quite scared. I actually ended up calling for a cease fire because I had taken such loses I was sure that a tank, or even a couple of half tracks would completely destroy me.

Cons

The OOB for the British seems unrealistic. Where are the suporting units? If there were reports of armor incoming, where are the PIATs and Gammon Bombs?

The map looks stale. The double ford looks unrealistic and the evenly spaced buildings need some scatered trees to make them look a bit better.

All and all I really liked this battle, even with my complaints. I think the incorrect and imcomplete briefing really added to it. Briefings that inform the player that reenforcements will be arriving on turn x infallibly are not generally realistic. When designing battles, feel free to lie.

--Chris

[Fionn]

I'm glad you seem to have liked Red Devils as it's my scenario .

As the British player Red Devils was designed in response to my perception that too many designers putting scenarios on the CD were giving unrealistically high and correct intelligence. The British intel briefing is basically an exercise in confusion .

As the Germans you have a MAJOR advantage in position etc but you need to organise a reserve and get a good sense of when units on the perimeter or about to break and reinforce them in time. It acts as a little bit of a primer on cityfighting methodologies.

My favourite type of game in CM is an infantry vs infantry cityfight meeting engagement and so Red Devils teaches some of the basics of the decision-making processes and the "feel" of a cityfight. That was my intention anyway.

Maastrician,

Where are your PIATS? Remember the gliders that went down? They contained your PIATS .

Map. The map was designed for tactical reasons and NOT looks. To have put in all those scattered trees etc to make it "look nice" would have detracted from what I was trying to do.

Mike,

Read the German briefing . After reading the Allied briefing I think the Axis briefing should explain a LOT of the incorrect intel etc .

[Guest Michael emrys]

Hi, Fionn. I keep returning to this scenario just to see if there is anyway to get it "right". But I'm beginning to think you wrote it as a revenge on the Paras.

I haven't read the German briefing yet as I wanted to play it from the British side without perfect intelligence. Well, I certainly got my wish...in spades! The Germans are definitely not as advertised in the pre-mission briefing. No matter what approach I use to try to get close to the objectives before the gunfire starts, I end up getting massacred. I think next time I'm going in with as near a full battalion as the program will allow. Since it's a fictional encounter anyway, I don't feel too bad about rewriting the rules. It was really nasty of you to take away the PIATs and 2" mortars, BTW.

Michael

[Fionn]

Actually it is eminently winnable as the British IF, and only if, you use proper close-fighting doctrine.

IF, you approach this as you would a fight over open country you will be cut down.. IF, OTOH, you approach this as a city-fight you can win through easily enough.

What you are describing is exactly what I designed this scenario to do. I wanted it to absolutely slaughter anyone who didn't approach the city-fight properly and be pretty winnable to anyone who approached it as a straight-forward cityfight.

The reason I left out the mortars and PIATs was caue I didn't want you using them to reduce the houses housing the Germans.

My advice is to mass and take a single house and then use that as a base for further expansion. ALWAYS try to ensure that you can only take fire from one aspect ( taking fire from the front and a side is deadly in a cityfight) and learn ONLY to attack when the enemy is totally suppressed.

If you can win this one easily then you're a good cityfighter. If you're having problems then you'd probably be slaughtered in a cityfight. Cityfighting is the pinnacle of infantry combat IMO and so is important to learn IMO. ( I like it anyways )

Ps. If I had to choose an Allied unit to take massive casualties then, yes, I'd definitely choose the parachute regiment.

[ironcross]

fionn wrote..Ps. If I had to choose an Allied unit to take massive casualties then, yes, I'd definitely choose the parachute regiment.

well i suppose i should play as the germans and think that the brits where irish...as an ex/brit soldier who lost mates over the water

i suppose i should forget the bombings warrenpoint the le mans bombing,manchester birmingham london bombings,guarding the wounded after a ira punishment squad had drilled out their kneecaps,helping a dying catholic man who had been blown up by a own goal as we call it.damn me for being such an imperalistic bootboy and forget the thousands who in the name of the ira or uda murdered each other.

we must let the bombers out of prison ,and dont forget the bombing of lisburn by the real continuity army,who still bomb or the mad old orange order who want to march down some stupid road.

If we hadnt gone in to protect the catholics in 69 it would have been ethnic cleansing by the protestants,i bet jesus wonders why he bothered.However im proud of what i did in ireland and if you want to fionn you can put my name in a scenario an spend your worthwhile hours shooting me down

------------------

[Guest Michael emrys]

Fionn, the problem I've had so far is that the Brit squads won't wait until a German position is suppressed. As soon as they start receiving fire, they charge right into it. A little too much elan, methinks.

BTW, I did win the only game I played to completion, I just lost more men doing it than I liked. Since then, I've tried to find a way to approach the objectives while not encountering more than one German position at a time, but that doesn't seem possible. I've tried to order most platoons to hold up and provide suppressive fire while working another in close, but in the dark they got confused and fired on their own men. As often as not, the reinforcements get cut down piecemeal before they can accomplish anything.

I'll take your word that there is a somewhat more elegant way to go about it, but I haven't found it yet. So far it just looks like a blood bath.

Michael

[Fionn]

Ironcross,

Hey, I'm not trying to call your mates who died murders ok? I'm just reflecting the fact that members of my family (unarmed of course) were shot dead by British troops and I'm not exactly 100% happy about that.

As for punishment beatings and the blowing up of little kids etc.. I don't support that. Remember it IS quite possible for an Irish Catholic to be unhappy with the fact that young men and women in his family were shot by British soldiers when they were clearly unarmed without that person automatically condoning the IRAs actions.

Just because I amn't happy with the fact that those soldiers got away with murder doesn't mean I am happy when the IRA kneecaps someone or kills some 20 year old British private who had no idea what was really going on.

Try to bear that in mind a little more ironcross. As for the Parachute Regiment.. Yes, I have a problem with a regiment which shot unarmed and wounded people lying in open roads in broad daylight and which it is now being shown on at least two occasions delivered execution style headshots to injured, unarmed catholics lying on the roads since some of the junior officers wanted to rack up the kills.

I don't support the IRA when it blows up kids, houses, barracks, kneecaps little thugs etc etc. That's not the way to deal with political disagreements. I also do NOT support British troops who shot unarmed Catholics.

I have no problem with a British soldier who came to the North and tried to be as impartial as possible. I DO have a problem with anyone in the North on ANY side who persecuted others for religious and ethnic reasons.

I hope that makes my position clear. You Brits can be so damned blind sometimes. You automatically assume that if someone is pissed off that British soldiers killed unarmed friends that this means that person supports blowing up British toddlers. Get a grip.

Mike,

Ah, what you need to do is learn the golden rule of streetfightinhg. It goes a little like this " One platoon vs 1 enemy position."

Friendly fire is MUCH reduced if the units assaulting Building A are having their suppressing fire ONLY from units in the same platoon.

E.g. if there are 3 houses I would allocate 1 platoon to supress each house. I would then charge one squad from each platoon into each house. By ensuring that the charging squad is from the same platoon as the supporting squads you minimise friendly fire ( I haven't ever lost a single man to friendly fire when testing the scenario.) and maximise your suppressive fire and effective offensive strength.

Try it out and let me know what you think .

See, it's a good training scenario isn't it? . I'm glad it has worked out exactly as I envisioned.

Ps... As the British if you can suffer fewer than 60 casualties vs the AI then you've reached a good level of understanding of cityfighting IMO.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Ironcross,

Mike,

Ah, what you need to do is learn the golden rule of streetfightinhg. It goes a little like this " One platoon vs 1 enemy position."

Friendly fire is MUCH reduced if the units assaulting Building A are having their suppressing fire ONLY from units in the same platoon.

E.g. if there are 3 houses I would allocate 1 platoon to supress each house. I would then charge one squad from each platoon into each house. By ensuring that the charging squad is from the same platoon as the supporting squads you minimise friendly fire ( I haven't ever lost a single man to friendly fire when testing the scenario.) and maximise your suppressive fire and effective offensive strength.

Try it out and let me know what you think .

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did. From the very first time I played the battle, in fact. If I may say so, I'm not entirely new at this stuff, Fionn.

In fact, I pulled off a minor victory that first time. I don't recall how many casualties my side suffered, but I know it was more than I like to lose.

My main problem, as I stated before, is my inability to control my men. This may be a reflection of their heavy establishment of short range weapons (i.e., stens). But they won't usually do the sensible thing and go to ground and return suppressive fire, but immediately go charging right down the throat of an MG 42 (apparently the Germans have solved the ineffective lo-viz MG problem discussed at such great length in another thread ).

Michael

[Fionn]

Ah Mike, I meant no offence.

It's just that I've seen quite a few very good players come unstuck in cityfighting.

It is, IMO, a unique type of fighting and is the pinnacle of infantry fighting and only the very best will ever learn to triumph in a cityfight with acceptable casualties.

You could be the best open country fighter in the world and still be a terrible cityfighter. I, obviously, know you aren't a newbie but you'd be amazed at the things us "old hands" sometimes forget to do ( me I recently forgot to remember that a DYO PBEM game was set at night and bought 4 mortar teams and 6 HMG42 teams.

Sad thing was that I was attacking *sigh*. I won but it was nasty, nasty, nasty.

[Havermeyer]

This was the fourth mission I played and the briefing really threw me, because the germans did fine in defending. The germans performed more in a fire, cover, withdrawal manner-- trying to keep fewer multiple lines of fire-- but concentrating it. Tried to keep CnC good, and keep exposed units from being overrun by the obviously fanatical brits.

I never lost the main objective-- but got really annoyed with the brits getting the bridge. Dunno if this was a psychological test you put in Fionn (can't recall if there was a flag down there...), but I chewed up a couple of squads late in the game trying to rush the brits and push them to the other side.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Ah Mike, I meant no offence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None taken. It just seemed a gentle reminder was in order.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It's just that I've seen quite a few very good players come unstuck in cityfighting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be looking at another one before long.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is, IMO, a unique type of fighting and is the pinnacle of infantry fighting and only the very best will ever learn to triumph in a cityfight with acceptable casualties.

You could be the best open country fighter in the world and still be a terrible cityfighter. I, obviously, know you aren't a newbie but you'd be amazed at the things us "old hands" sometimes forget to do...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just a country boy at heart and I know it, but I would still like to command a proper assault group in Stalingrad some day. I read a couple descriptions of their techniques and came to admire them. Trouble with the scenario under discussion is that the Paras really aren't set up with either the equipment or the organisation to do the job without getting themselves seriously whacked in the process. Oh well, this too shall pass...

Michael