Getting FOs to Ride

[manchildstein (ii)]

is this broken? i can't seem to get my hungarian fos into trucks... is it because maybe they're using wire instead of radio? if so, how do i change this in the editor? is it in the patch?

thanks

[Foxbat]

If they'd go anywhere they'd have to disconnect their wires putting them effectively out of action.. hence they can't hop on trucks.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by manchildstein II:

is this broken? i can't seem to get my hungarian fos into trucks... is it because maybe they're using wire instead of radio? if so, how do i change this in the editor? is it in the patch?

Yes, wired FOs can't ride. FOs with radios (and there are some in the game) can still ride, however.

Michael

[manchildstein (ii)]

uh... why would it be assumed that a forward observer in a mech unit would always have wire and not radio?

especially when the FOs were purchased under the 'mechanized unit' type...

thanks for the info

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by manchildstein II:

uh... why would it be assumed that a forward observer in a mech unit would always have wire and not radio?

especially when the FOs were purchased under the 'mechanized unit' type...

thanks for the info

You bought wire FOs. It specifically says radio for radio FOs

[Compassion]

Originally posted by manchildstein II:

uh... why would it be assumed that a forward observer in a mech unit would always have wire and not radio?

especially when the FOs were purchased under the 'mechanized unit' type...

thanks for the info

Why would you assume that a mech unit has no infrastructure... like having batteries of arty towed to the front, communication being established with their organic HQ's, engineers to string wires communication experts to assign radio frequencies, etc. all well before the first shot is fired (hopefully) and then when the action moves, everything gets locaed onto trcks/railcars, etc. and gets done again somewhere else?

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by Compassion:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by manchildstein II:

uh... why would it be assumed that a forward observer in a mech unit would always have wire and not radio?

especially when the FOs were purchased under the 'mechanized unit' type...

thanks for the info

Why would you assume that a mech unit has no infrastructure... like having batteries of arty towed to the front, communication being established with their organic HQ's, engineers to string wires communication experts to assign radio frequencies, etc. all well before the first shot is fired (hopefully) and then when the action moves, everything gets locaed onto trcks/railcars, etc. and gets done again somewhere else?</font>

[Bullethead]

Compassion said:

Why would you assume that a mech unit has no infrastructure... like having batteries of arty towed to the front, communication being established with their organic HQ's, engineers to string wires communication experts to assign radio frequencies, etc. all well before the first shot is fired (hopefully) and then when the action moves, everything gets locaed onto trcks/railcars, etc. and gets done again somewhere else?

This is EXACTLY what is assumed to go on behind the scenes, the net result of which is you having an FO unit on the map controlling guns off the map that can fire onto the map in the battle you are fighting. What you're not understanding is a few tactical limitations of field telephones that no amount of infrastructure and prior preparation is going going to solve.

Military field telephone wire differs GREATLY from domestic telephone wire. It is MUCH more heavy and bulky. This is mainly because most of the metal in it is steel, to make the wire strong enough that it won't break when grunts trip over it, trucks run over it, etc. In the case of Germany, all the metal was usually steel because the Germans didn't have enough aluminum and copper to waste on tens of thousands of miles of telephone wire, most of which would be abandoned when the front moved. Then there's the insulation, which also has to be much bulkier than on household telephone wire, to take the abuse of being out in the field for months.

As a result of this, a spool of field telephone wire small enough and light enough to be carried by 1 man, such as those spools you see on the back of WW2 German soldiers, only holds a few hundred meters. To go further than that, you need bigger spools, which in turn pretty much require a vehicle to carry them and special mounts in the vehicle so the wire pays out neatly behind the vehicle. Thus, there evolved 2 distinct spool sizes. The man-portable kind of very short reach, and the bigger type with about a mile of wire intended for vehicular laying. No use making anything in between. And for a variety of practical reasons which I won't go into in this post, an FO team in a CM battle is only going to have 1 of the small type.

NOTE: It's possible to use the big spools by hand and it's possible to use the small spools from vehicles. However, doing either imposes a lot of other limits and penalties on the units involved that the game can't handle. So don't get me started on that

Anyway, now we have end product of all the parent organization's infrastructure: an FO team on the map at the beginning of a CM battle. Besides a map, binos, and other such arty-related stuff, they have a field telephone and a small spool of wire. Stretching off the friendly map edge behind them is a telephone wire running several miles at least to whomever the FO talks to. Laying this wire took considerable behind-the-scenes effort on the part of the infrastructure, BTW.

Now we run into game engine limitations and design decisions taken as a result. Ideally, it should work as follows:

</font>

• The game would keep track of the total distance moved by an FO team. Once it reached several hundred meters, then end of its available wire, no further movement would be possible during the current battle. After the battle, the parent infrastructure would show up, lay more wire to get the FO to a new OP, take the FO's empty spool to reload, and give the FO a new spool. But none of this can happen during a battle.</font>
• The game would keep track of the path over which the FO moved, because it leaves a "snail trail" of wire as it goes. Then any time a unit (friendly or enemy) crossed this path, there'd be a chance of the wire getting cut or broken, especially if tanks crossed it. The game would also check for damage from shells falling along the path.</font>
• The FOs could ride in vehicles, but they'd still be subject to the total distance traveled limitation above. In addition, the vehicle would be limited to walking speed and no more as long as the FO was aboard.
  </font>

Unfortunately, none of these ideal things are possible. The engine doesn't track distance traveled for any unit, nor does it keep track of the paths they follow. It does not alter vehicle speed based on what passenger the vehicle is carrying, and limit that vehicle's movement to a distance that actually affects the passenger and not the vehicle itself. Thus, numerous abstractions had to be made.

Abstracting the limited distance thing was the easiest. Giving the FOs a slow speed, because they're carefully paying out wire from their small spool as they go, puts a practical limit on FO movement. Combined with the increased delay times for calling fire and the length of the typical battle, slow-speed FOs can't walk more than a couple hundred meters anyway and still be useful in the battle. So everything is still within broadly acceptable levels of realism.

It should now be obvious why wire FOs can't ride. First off, not being able to limit vehicle speed with FOs aboard is patently unrealistic for the purposes of laying wire from a small spool. Second, the higher speed of the vehicle as opposed to slow walking speed lets the FO cover way too much distance on the map during a battle. He would easily be able to cover way more than a few hundred meters and still be able to fire before the battle ends. This is also patently unrealistic, because the FO doesn't have that much wire. Hence the only possible solution was to keep wire FOs from riding at all.

[Bullethead]

manchildstein II said:

so i take it that it's hard wired into the editor that an fo is either radio or telephone... but the designer can't tell unless they buy the thing, then go into map preview, and look at it?

Radio FOs have the word "radio" in parentheses after the type of weapon. Like this: "Howizter spotter 203mm (radio)". If it doesn't say radio, then it's wire.

It could easily be that the Hungarians don't have any radio FOs. After all, wire remained the principle means of arty communications for both the Germans and the Russians throughout the whole war. But I'm not familiar with the Hungarian OOB so can't say for sure.

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

manchildstein II said:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />so i take it that it's hard wired into the editor that an fo is either radio or telephone... but the designer can't tell unless they buy the thing, then go into map preview, and look at it?

Radio FOs have the word "radio" in parentheses after the type of weapon. Like this: "Howizter spotter 203mm (radio)". If it doesn't say radio, then it's wire.

It could easily be that the Hungarians don't have any radio FOs. After all, wire remained the principle means of arty communications for both the Germans and the Russians throughout the whole war. But I'm not familiar with the Hungarian OOB so can't say for sure.</font>

[Bullethead]

manchildstein II said:

so the odds are that my use of 105 FOs in this situation may not be realistic given what i was trying to portray: a fairly ad hoc, quick hitting mobile assault upon a hill.

If the 105s didn't have a radio FO, then yeah, that might not be realistic. The bigger the arty, the further back it is, so the longer the telephone wire has to be, and thus the more time it takes to lay it. This required time might exceed that available before the ad hoc attack MUST go in if it's to be successful.

This is one of the main reasons the Germans developed assault guns. Their whole blitzkrieg system required ad hoc forces acting quickly all the time, but they were stuck with mostly telephones for their arty. Why they didn't buy more radios, I have no idea. But that's the situation they had, so they developed assault guns to give the grunts rapid-response, arty-caliber firepower without having to wait for the wiremen (IGs not being much better than arty, apparently). The same circumstances applied to the Russians and the allies of both sides using their systems.

This is another area of adjustment for CMBO players. Besides all the tactical changes, folks will have to change their unit purchase habits as well. Arty isn't nearly as useful as it was in CMBO, due to limited FO movement, longer delays, and the blind-fire scatter. Sure, it still hurts when it hits, but it can't hit as many targets as before. Thus, something else has to be there to deliver the large-caliber HE.

In a typical CMBO battle, I usually bought forces as follows: a reinforced grunt company with some on-map mortars and maybe an 81mm mortar spotter, 1 or 2 fairly powerful FOs (105-120mm), and as many good tanks as I had points left over for. These days, the grunts need a lot more suppressive fire to get anywhere and arty just isn't as useful. So I tend to get mostly assault guns and extra HMGs to support the grunts. If I have an FO at all, he's going to be medium mortars.