OT/ German 1941 Infantry Company Org.

[Srgn_Dick_York]

I was wondering if anyone can help me w/ German 1941

Rifle company org. I know that it has roughly 3 squads to a platoon,

3 platoons to a company, 3 companies to a battalion.

I also belive that the their is a heavy weapons platoon and company

of mortars and mgs which can be attatched out.

Some of my qustions are;

#1) Where were 50mm mortars attatched/located?

#2) How were ATRs attatched/ distributed?

#3) What would the typical battalion support units

be?

BTW, this is for miniature wargaming composition.

I figure that some other people might be interested in this

post anyway in anticipation of CMBB. Thanks for any help, comments,

or usefull banter. Dan

[Srgn_Dick_York]

PS. Please feel free to include Finnish, Czech,

Hungarian, Romanian, Russian and Italian rifle

companies for comparison.

[ April 03, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Silesian-jaeger ]

[Maj. Battaglia]

According to "The Handbook on German Military Forces" written by the US War Dept. in 1945, the German "Old Type" Infantry Division, standard until the end of 1943, had four squads to a platoon after the Polish Campaign (see p. 90). IIRC, the old AH game "Tobruk" also reflected this. The 50mm mortars are company weapons, with 3 to a company, plus 3 in the divisional recon battalion.

The Handbook is available for download (in 3 huge chunks) from the US MIlitary History Institute or available from bookstores. Try used bookstores. I got mine in new condition for 1/2 the $29.99 cover price.

[JasonC]

My understanding is that each company had 3 infantry and one weapons platoon. The infantry platoons had 3 line squads and a large HQ section the size of a 4th squad. The weapons platoon had one each of MG, 50mm mortar, and ATR sections, plus an HQ. Sometimes the ATRs would be missing, with extra MGs in their place.

81mm mortars and additional MGs, always heavy tripod variety, were found in a battalion-level heavy weapons company. Regiments had gun companies with infantry guns, both 75mm and 150mm. Divisions had anti-tank battalions with towed ATGs, and sometimes light flak as one company of the battalion.

Compared to the later organization, the difference in mortars is that 81mm had not yet been pushed down to company level heavy weapons in pairs, and instead companies used the lighter 50mm mortars, slightly more of them. In AT weapons, the difference is that regimental level AT companies with a few heavy PAK and numerous schrecks (the latter usually distributed to the line platoons) were not yet present. They had ATRs in the company heavy weapons platoons instead, and towed ATGs only at the divisional AT battalion level.

Late war formations also reduced the size of the squads and the size of the HQ sections, reducing an infantry platoon from something on the order of 50 men to more like 30-35. The number of MGs remained at least as high and sometimes rose, while the number of SMGs rose significantly. That was meant to make up for fewer riflemen in the platoon. In firepower terms it probably did, but in staying power when taking casualties it did not. It coincided with a shift to mostly defensive rather than mostly offensive action, however, so it made sense.

I hope this helps.

[Gary T]

the difference is that regimental level AT companies with a few heavy PAK and numerous schrecks (the latter usually distributed to the line platoons) were not yet present

Jason,

The regimental level anti-tank companies (14./) were an integral part of the German infantry regiment well before the outbreak of the war. They were of course then armed with 3,7 cm Pak's. They were also termed panzerabwehr kompanies instead of panzerjager.

Cheers,

Gary.

[Skipper]

Since when is it OT on THIS forum???...

Although, having taken a look at the list of recent threads...

[Skipper]

Here goes:

Rifle company, RKKA

Organisation 04/400-416, dated 5 April 1941

HQ

CO - pistol

Political deputy CO - pistol

Starshina (master sergeant) - rifle

Cart driver - rifle, horse, cart

Clerk - rifle

Snipers - 2, rifles

Messenger - rifle

3x RIFLE PLATOONS

CO - pistol

XCO - SMG

Messenger - rifle

4x RIFLE SQUADS

CO - autoloading rifle

Machinegunner - LMG

Assistant m/gunner - autoloading rifle

SMG gunners - 3, SMG

Riflemen - 6, rifles

1x MORTAR SQUAD (50mm mortar)

CO - pistol

team - 3, rifles, rifles

1x MG PLATOON

CO - pistol

Cart driver - rifle, horse, cart

2x HMG TEAMS

CO - pistol

team - 4, rifles

1x MEDICAL SQUAD

CO - pistol

Paramedics - unarmed

6 officers, 22 NCOs, 150 enlisted men

[ April 08, 2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Skipper ]

[JasonC]

To Gary T - thanks for the correction. Were the 14th companies in addition to divisional AT battalions, or in place of them? Since three companies per division would be one per regiment, I have to be clear about this point to see if we are actually saying different things. In other words, what was the total 37mm ATG load-out of a standard infantry division? Where there 6 company-level AT assets per division (1 per regiment plus 3 in a divisional AT battalion), or 3?

[Gary T]

Jason,

According to the Gliederung from 3rd January 1939 there were 3 companies in the infantry regiments and a further 3 in the panzerabwehr battalion. The panzerabwehr battalion was certainly in place in 1935 not sure when the infantry regiments gained theirs. I'll have a look thorugh my wehrpass collection and see if I can find any pre-war members of infantry anit-tank companies.

Cheers,

Gary.

[Bamse]

Skipper, very interesting ! Care to expand that to Battalionlevel ? Do you have something simmular for the Russians, Finns, Rumanians, Hungarians ? If you have, please post it here or post the link to where it can be found !

/björne

[Michael Dorosh]

Skipper- you use the term CO (Commanding Officer) interchangeably between men of commissioned rank and men of non-commissioned rank. Any idea what the "typical" ranks for the positions on your chart would be?

Would the Master Sergeant be the equivalent of a German Hauptfeldwebel, British Company Sergeant Major, or American Company First Sergeant? (ie - an appointment, not a rank, being the senior NCO in the company and in charge of administration, discipline, ammunition supply, prisoners, etc.?)

[ April 09, 2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Skipper]

In the same document, organisation of rifle batallion is:

Batallion CO and HQ (4 officers, 1 enlisted)

Comms platoon (field commutator, 5 radio stations, 3 horsecarts)

3 rifle companies

HMG company (3 platoons x 4 HMGs = 12 HMGs)

Mortar company (3 platoons x 2 mortars = 6 82mm mortars)

45mm guns platoon (2 45mm guns)

Sanitary platoon

Logistics (?) platoon - people in charge of food, clothes, ammo, other supplies etc

Dorosh: 6 commissioned officers ain the company organisation are company commander, political deputy and 4 platoon commanders. Starshina is equivalent of first sergeant (i.e., top NCO, in chage of discipline, administration etc etc - just like you say).

Bamse:

> Do you have something simmular for the

> Russians, Finns, Rumanians, Hungarians ?

RKKA is Russians (Soviets, to be more precise).

Source is http://rkka.ru, but it is all in Russian.

From the same place, organisational structure of rifle division:

Also from there, changes in firepower of standard rifle division, during WWII.

----- artillery salvo weight in kg

-.-.- mortar salvo weight in kg

_____ shots per minute, small arms (in terms of practical rate of fire)

[JasonC]

To Gary T - useful, but the number of 37mm ATGs per division would be more useful. How many did the 14th companies have?

In later years, the 14th companies typically had just 3 75mm PAK, with the balance of the company equipped with panzerschrecks (since 3 is only a platoon-sized unit of actual PAK). Did the 37mm ones (before they had schrecks, obviously) have a full 12 PAK at each level, regiment and each of the three division-level companies, making 72 37mm ATGs per infantry division? Or just 4 per regiment (and ATRs, perhaps), making 48 37mm ATGs per division?

[Scott B]

According to Leo Niehorster's site, the most common configurations for Barbarossa seem to have been 12 37mm ATGs or 9 37mm and 2 50mm ATGs, although it seems worth mentioning that some of the newer divisions (waves 13-15) seem to have had significantly fewer antitank guns available. Unfortunately the breakdown is by wave, not by individual division; I have the Nafziger book on German infantry organizations at home, but won't have access to it until tonight.

The organization and number of antitank guns change from wave to wave; there's a whole range of possible organizations, including well armed early wave divisions with full AT companies and battalions at regimental and divisional level, to newer divisions without apparently any antitank guns at regimental level. Some 50mm ATGs seem to have been present, and a number of captured French 47mm ATGs were also in the inventory, but by and large most weapons were still the old 37mm gun.

Hope this is of some use.

Scott

[JasonC]

Yes that does help. It sounds like the TOE ideal was 72 per division, but they did not reach it with all formations. So anywhere between that number and half that number might be found, depending on the particular formation.

The impression I had was that 37mm were not hard to come by but were not considered very effective, and that the bigger weapons were the truly scarce item. But 72 per division is still a lot of ATGs for so early in the war, even for light guns. And early on, the overwhelming majority of the Russian tanks were very thin-skinned varities - T-26 and BTs for the most part - which 37mm ATGs would not have had any trouble dealing with.

[Gary T]

Hi,

The (theorectical) total number of 3,7 cm Paks found in a 1939 infantry division is 75 - 36 in the Pz Jag Abt, 12 each in the infantry regiments and last, but not least, 3 in the Aufkl Abt's heavy company.

Of course these limits were rarely achieved - however I think you'll find the 3,7 cm soldiered on for far longer than usually thought, especially in the 14./ companies of the infantry regiments where they were still be used well into 1943. These were the poor relations of the Pz Jag Abt and always the last to receive any new equipment. However (contrary to popular belief) any ATG is better than none. I have seen photos of them still in use in the summer of 1943 with 14./ IR 431 (note one is horsedrawn).

See below -

Cheers,

Gary.

[ April 11, 2002, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Gary T ]