flak on ground fighting on the Eastern Front

[freaky ol'man w/very long wings]

I've been looking at a book of mostly pictures & synopsis in German with short English translations.

The book is titled "Die Deutschen Vor Moskau 1941/42. By Werner Haupt.

There are several pictures of Flak 88's being use on ground targets.

A quote in the book states; "Anti-aircraft guns become important weapons in ground-fighting. In this sector alone 3.000 Russian tanks have been destroyed."

The sector in question is the Rzhev sector (Kalinin Front).

I'm aware that players had adopted rules when playing PBEM games and that those rules are there to make their game more challanging as a simulation of the period, as I understand.

My question is how this would affect these rules, ie., infantry-only rules were 88's are not allowed.

(The pictures show me that those guns are being used in support of ground troops).

And later in the winter of 41/42 another quote states that AA guns had become the backbone of the German Army during the retreat.

I'm wondering how these rules would be affected by information of this sort and how it will be addressed.

This is not a question of if there would be rules or not rules, but in the scope of CMBB, I wonder what surprises the game has for the player in a situation like this.

[Silvio Manuel]

In any "Infantry-only" rule/guideline that I've heard of, ANY type of towed gun is allowed, from 20mm to 150mm, etc. They shouldn't be terribly unbalancing, since they are easy prey to infantry that are close to them, and the infantry's supporting mortars/off-map arty can quickly kill them once they are spotted.

I would think that Guns are less of a factor in inf-only games, since the great benefit of guns (esp. AT guns) is to kill high-point/high-utility tanks from a position of stealth...they can't kill "a tank's worth" of infantry that quickly.

[Durbish]

And I thought infantry only games meant only the ground pounders themselves would be included as in no support weps whatsoever. I never expected these to be historical.

[Andreas]

Oswald, don't know about the rules, but if you want to know more about ground use of 8,8cm FLAKs, this is the source to go for:

Piekalkiewicz, Janusz: Die 8,8cm Flak im Erdeinsatz

German original

English language translation

Since you seem to be able to speak German, I would go for the original. Having just done a big translation job, I know how easily things get cocked up. Schiffer is especially bad.

[Olle Petersson]

The German 88mm AA gun was exceptional in a couple of aspects.

1) It was intended to fight medium and high altitude bombers, that in practice never or rarely appeared near the front.

2) It was an organic part of most divisions, so it was available there, at the front.

3) It was equipped with an AP round, and the crews knew how to handle it against ground targets.

The Allied counterparts were aware of #1, which in practice excluded #2 and #3.

For an "all infantry" battle you don't need 'em.

It's against the Soviet tanks that the need arise...

Cheers

Olle

[Andreas]

Olle, there is one other thing unfortunately not modeled in CMBO. The 8,8cm Flak was a deadly weapon against infantry because of its ability to produce DF airbursts combined with a high rate of fire. The Zuenderstellgeraet on the gun enabled crews to very quickly set the fuze to detonate at a preset distance. As anyone who has been subjected to a VT bombardment in CMBO knows, airbursts are not good news if you are in the PBI or a soft-skinned/open-topped vehicle.

So while in CMBO there is little point to getting the gun in an all-infantry game, in Real Life, it was a truly nasty part of the German arsenal with all-round abilities to dish out hurt.

[freaky ol'man w/very long wings]

It seems that every comment, as short as it can be, does clarify a lot of questions that arise.

Thank you guys for this information since it broadens my understanding of the game and of the different topics that are discussed in this forum.

My question arouse because it has been pointed out, when using inf-only rules in a match, that if you wanted to buy an AT asset, well, they "wished you luck".

But research tells me different, inf-only rules, in my understanding does not allowed 88's (I believe it is made clear that it is AA 88's), this is, in CMBO, but what would happen in CMBB, when we know the use of certain arms in the war in Russia, at times, was not the standard?

My point is that contestants should be aware of details of this kind, even when "rare", To balance their games in the future.

I also hope the upcoming CMBB is full of all those "Minor" details which are just amazing in CMBO.

Thank you again, Olle, Andreas, your information is much appreciated.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by freaky ol'man w/very long wings:

...if you wanted to buy an AT asset, well, they "wished you luck".

Because the AT assets would be a waste of resources.

Better HE guns, like IGs and howitzers, would be a better option.

... in my understanding does not allowed 88's (I believe it is made clear that it is AA 88's)

You confuse this with the (sligtly ill written) rule against autocannons; the lighter AA guns.

These are murderous against infantry in CM...

Thank you again, Olle, Andreas, your information is much appreciated.

You're welcome!

Cheers

Olle