Retreating is too hard

[Henri]

It seems to me that units retreating from combat find it too difficult (and are usually wiped out), so I am unable to put together a credible flexible defence , which the Germans were very good at.

This may be partially due to the fact that visibility may be too easy in scattered trees. It seems to me that a unit five or ten meters deep in such terrain could easily make itself invisible if it wanted to, and be able to sneak out to the rear without much chance of being spotted and killed.

Last night in the "Fear in the Fog" scenario, I tried to withdraw a platoon after it had ambushed and blunted the enemy advance , but every man was killed despite the fact that they were in scatted tree terrain and that there was heavy fog, and that the nearest enemy was 20 m or more away and that no machineguns were involved.

Great fun, though, but being able to execute a flexible defence with only moderate casualties would be great

Henri

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Henri:

I disagree.

AFAIK retreating under fire was (and still is) one of the most difficult things to do successfully and at this scale I think CM does a VERY good job of illustrating this.

Are you giving your retreating units covering fire when they withdraw? If not then I would expect them to take heavy losses, esp. if your opponent is aggressive in following-up.

As for "SCATTERED TREES", I don't know. I guess it all depends on your exact definition of how scattered the trees are within the tile (are there 2 trees, 5 trees, 10 trees). I think perhaps you are expecting more cover then they are supposed to represent. I do recall reading that "SCATTERED TREES" should be used for orchards. And from the orchards I have seen they would not block LOS much.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[James Bailey]

Henri,

I agree with Scott.

I think CM does a great job at modelling retreats - it rewards those who do it right and BURNS you if you do not.

As Scott pointed out, make sure you cover you retreat with fire. An enemy unopposed quickly knocks down men that have turned their backs to retreat... even the riflemen can kill you here - in some of these cases he is more effective than high ROF weapons because he is trained at aiming his weapon!

I would also add two other major consideration:

1. Get out of LOS ASAP. There is nothing like putting a mound of earth between you and enemy bullets. I second Scott on not replying on scattered trees to cover your retreat. Woods, buildings, earth all offer more valuable Cover and/or Concealment (CC). Lines of Retreat that offer CC should be a major factor in placing every single soldier. If no terrain factors available, try using smoke to create Concealment.

2. Distance from enemy. You mentioned 20m in your post... that is too close if the enemy is not suppressed. I would think double that is the minimum distance to try to retreat if you don't have supression fire or quick CC. Anything closer maybe better to stand and die fighting rather than getting a bullet in the back.

Try applying those three principles - suppression fire, CC, and proper distance - and your flexible defence should gain more credibility.

Let us know how it goes,

-James.

[Jeff Heidman]

I am going with what others have said.

When you try to retreat, take a looka t the guys who are shooting at you. Are the kneeling? If so, you havenot suppressed them, and they are going to make your troops pay a steep price for getting up and mvoing away.

Now, if you have some machine guns or something to supress them with, you might have some more luck! They do not shoot nearly as often when they are prone.

Jeff Heidman

[Los]

Yes if you wait until they are 20m away before you retreat (regardless of terrain type) then they can pretty much throw rocks at you and knock you down. Anything within LOS patricularly under a 100 meters and certainly anything within grenade range then you have waited too long to pull out safely, terrain dictating of course.

Los

[James Bailey]

Los,

Your 100m to enemy seems like a pretty good distance to try an supported retreat. Under that range and you start hitting a steep inflection point for SMG fire-power pretty quickly.

CM models these effects quite convincingly.

Any other thoughts on shortest distances to try a fairly exposed retreat?

Thanks,

James.

[Henri]

Thanks to all who responded; it appears that a fighting retreat is hard to do without smoke or building cover. I would like to hear how some are doing in situations like "Fear in the Fog", where the US is likely to be hit in the flank and where an orderly fighting retreat towards friendly units through mostly scattered trees and fog might be a good option.

Henri

[Jeff Heidman]

Hneri, when I played Fear in the Fog, I did the sameas you. I put a platoon out in front, and I also waited too long before pulling them back, and they were overwhelmed.

I think the key is two things:

1. You will probably not be able to get it deon in something like Fear n the Fog simply because the range is just too short by the time contact is made. You have to pull out before the bad guys can wipe you out in one burst from very short ranged, high firepower weapons.

2. You have to be able to get your guys out of fire quickly. This means either immediately available cover, whether that be smoke, woods, a hill, or even suppressive fire.

Jeff Heidman

[Fionn]

If you try retreating with an enemy 20 metres away from you you are just asking to have your troops slaughtered.

The key rules to a fighting retreat are to inflict your clutch of casualties on the enemy and retreat BEFORE they get close enough to inflict lots of casualties on you.

Personally I prefer to begin a retreat when the enemy is about 80 metres from me UNLESS I can retreat and IMMEDIATELY have my troops hidden from their view.

In one recent PBEM ( AAR of which will begin appearing on CMHQ soon) I pulled two platoons of German troops back over open ground onto the reverse slope of a hill. I pulled them back when the enemy were about 150 to 200 metres away since their fallback route was 100% exposed to enemy fire.

In a forest situation I'd wait for the enemy to be on top of me before ambushing them and would rely on the fact that the enemy units would be panicked and routed enough to give me the 20 seconds or so that it takes to pull back 20 metres into the forest ( and thus out of LOS).

Generally though I think that most people try to retreat when the enemy is too close to them. Generally if the enemy is within 40 metres of your position you are better to simply fight it out than retreat IMO.

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

The key rules to a fighting retreat are to inflict your clutch of casualties on the enemy and retreat BEFORE they get close enough to inflict lots of casualties on you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is very good advice, and indeed, when I applied it to the rest of my game, I was able to execute a flexible defence with success (see my AAR on Fear in the Fog). Given that there was fog reducing visibility, I could retreat with as little as 60 m from the enemy, but I had other units suppressing the enemy.

My limited experience tells me this: to successfully retreat, you should have just fired on the enemy, be at least in scattered tree terrain or better, have the enemy unit(s) suppressed and lying down and be at least 60 m from the nearest one.If any one of these conditions is absent, you stand a pretty good chance of taking heavy casualties as you retreat .Having other nearby units (especially a machinegun) suppressing the enemy can also be a big plus.

Henri

[Fionn]

Henri,

Yup, I think you have most of the requirements down now . I find that posting a couple of HMGs back where they can suppress the enemy I've just ambushed as I pull back works great.

[Slappy]

Something else to try on the defense. CM only lets you have foxholes (in fact Makes You Have Foxholes)where you start out. In the setup, position your troops 40-50m inside of a treeline. On turn 1-2, move them out to the front of the woods for a forward defense / ambush. Trigger this at 100-150m to supress the enemy and give him something to think about. When he recovers or armor/arty shows up (still at least 80m away), RUN back to the start position. He'll lose LOS and likely assume that you've bugged out a lot further than you have. You can get a 2nd, better covered ambush inside the woods. Repeat this procedure with your now slightly weakened, but better covered squad. When things get hairy there, bug out again to a central fallback area using the greater tree cover to save you.