Hans Posted November 16, 2002 Share Posted November 16, 2002 Any grog historians out there? How common was the use of anti-tank ditches? How were they used, in conjunction with minefields, behind them, in front of them, different concepts of it use by the different nationalities, etc "tactical deployment of the anti-tank ditch" I find that trenches simulate a ditch fairly well and is anyone using them for that? Hans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robohn Posted November 16, 2002 Share Posted November 16, 2002 I've tried the trench as an anti-tank ditch, and my results have been miserable. A total of six tanks have crossed them and none of them bogged (they were slightly delayed though). I even tried combining them with wire and anti-tank mines. I had a 2 Tigers go through the ditch/wire/AT mine combo with no problems. I had blocked off about 1/3 of the map using the trenches/wire/mines combo. The middle of the map was a large town, and the other side was mostly open (I took an educated guess as to what side my opponent would go for.) I choose correctly in 2 engagements, but the trenches ddin't seem to stop/slow the tanks too much. Robohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylord Focker Posted November 16, 2002 Share Posted November 16, 2002 How does it work if you double up on the trench depth? Like stacking them in front of each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robohn Posted November 16, 2002 Share Posted November 16, 2002 Haven't tried doubling up the depth, paying for the length was enough points already. (to have a significant line anyway.) Not sure what the manual mean by a significant chance of bogging crossing trenches though (10%, 50% who knows). Robohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted November 16, 2002 Share Posted November 16, 2002 Are you working in the editor, or a QB situtaion? I'm think that you could drop the terrain down and put the trench at the bottom to simulate a tank trap. If you make the leading edge a "slope" the tank will not be able to go in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted November 16, 2002 Share Posted November 16, 2002 Hi, An Anti-Tank ditch requires a large amount of Engineer effort (or lots of civilian labour - inhabitants of a nearby town for example) to construct. Even today with mechanised Engr equipment they take some time to put in (for one style, the planning data is: 12m per hr for a ditch 6m wide and 1.5 deep) and during the 40's when picks and shovels were the order of the day, they would take far longer (even accounting for the Soviet's excellence in rapidly building defensive works and the vested interest that press ganged civilians may have). You would normally only find them built for large scale defensive battles. The defence of Leningrad, Moscow, Kursk, the Vistula line and Berlin are some examples. It is a vastly bigger activity than an Infantry trench system (3 - 6 m wide compared to 1) and they are usually sited by formations (Bde sized units) in their AO. Bn's may have an Anti-Tank ditch in front of their position but they wouldn't site it. Armoured forces can drive straight over a std infantry trench, indeed the introduction of the tank during WWI and its success at places like Cambrai was because they were designed to defeat just such a defensive layout (hence their lack of effectiveness when employed as Anti-Tank ditches). It is interesting to note that off to the south of Barbarossa in North Africa, Australian soldiers would use this fact to seperate the Panzers from their Infantry. They would drop down to the bottom of the trench, let the tanks cross over and then get back up to engage the dismounted infantry behind. [ November 16, 2002, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: gibsonm ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 I've used roadblocks as ditches but it doesn't look very nice. A specific ATD symbol is probably needed to model it correctly. But will run some experiments with trenches tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Why not use terrain tiles which tanks will be unable to cross or which dramatically increase the chance to bog in combination with a fair amount of height difference on both sides? I know that´s going to be a REALLY big anti-tank obstacle but I don´t think you´ll get anywhere with trenches. barbed wire etc. Cheers Nolloff [ November 17, 2002, 03:43 AM: Message edited by: Nolloff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 What about laying craters as anti-tank ditches? They slow tanks down and seriously increase the risk of bogging and immobilisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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