Mark Gallear Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 37mm L45 AP 48mm at 100m 45mm at 250m 39mm at 500m 34mm at 750m 30mm at 1000m Data developed by converting 30° figures in Jentz Panzertruppen to 0° using slope multipliers and armor hardness effects. Projectile metal in 37mm AP appears to be very inferior to 75L43 APCBC. Turret front successes against T34 will be severely reduced. 50mm L42 APC 75mm at 0m 71mm at 100m 66mm at 250m 58mm at 500m 45mm at 1000m Data lowered to be more consistent with American and British estimates. KV-1 75mm armor vulnerability reduced significantly. 50mm L60 APC 99mm at 0m 94mm at 100m 88mm at 250m 77mm at 500m 59mm at 1000m Data lowered to be more consistent with American and British estimates and German tests against KV-1 75mm/30° during spring 1942 (round succeeded at 100m and failed at 200m). 75mm L24 APCBC 50mm at 100m 49mm at 250m 47mm at 500m 46mm at 750m 44mm at 1000m Following changes follow from analysis of data in Jentz Dreaded Threat and American/British data on Flak ammo: 88mm L56 Flak (up to spring 1942) 123mm at 100m 121mm at 250m 116mm at 500m 112mm at 750m 108mm at 1000m Early war large HE burster capacity ammo 88mm L56 Flak (spring 1942 and beyond) 149mm at 100m 145mm at 250m 139mm at 500m 133mm at 750m 127mm at 1000m Gun 37mm L45 Kills BA6/BA10/BA20/T26 all types/bt-2,Bt-5,Bt-7, All tankettes at up to 1000m on Front turret. T34 M40/41 Possible Front turret kills at 250m (How much does the curved armour make that unlikely?) Can still bounce at point blank. T34 M41 Cast turret – not normally possible to penetrate even at point blank. (Assume you have a critical system for extremely lucky hits on weak points such as ports, etc. KV1/KV2 Cannot normally penetrate turret or Hull at point blank My perception of these figures is that they are about right – no complaints. 50mm L42 APC Kill standard light armour out to 1000m T34 M40/41 Possible Front turret kills at 1000m T34 M41 Cast turret Possible at around 750m KV1 1939/40 Not possible to penetrate turret at point blank Only possible to penetrate hull at point blank My perception of these figures is that the T-34 did a lot better than this – I would say maybe 50% of hits killed at 500m of the top my head. 50mm L60 APC Kills all standard light stuff up to a 1000m and beyond. T34 M40/M41 all types killed in front turret at 1000m KV1 1939/1940 Front Turret Kills at 100m Hulls kills at just above 500m KV2 Front turret immune at point blank. My perception is again a bit extreme on T-34 I would have thought surviving 50% of front turret his at 750m of the top of my head. I suspect some T-34s survived front turret hits at 500m and below. 75mm L24 APCBC Kills light armour at any range. T34/40 get front turret kills at around 850-900m if indeed it had any hope of accurately put its rounds that far! T34 M41 cast turret – survives turret hits at point blank KVs survive at any range. My perception - Um on this one! 88mm L56 Flak (up to spring 1942) Kills anything up to 1000m Except front turret of KV2 and that will be about 980-990m! It very hard to say from Russian experience. If I remember rightly when Germans 88mm L56 Flak (up to spring 1942) first encountered KVs which held up their advance they called in Divisional artillery assets to blast them – they did not bring up 88mm guns. I know that the Luftwaffer crewed them and were trained to rapidly put shells in an area of space above them – they do not have proper gunsights to hit tanks but unlike 3inch British aircraft gun which had them separate they were at least on the gun. Gun commander could watch the fall of shot through binoculars and been 88m he should be able to see something. The model in the Tiger 1 would of course have had proper sights, as would later models of the gun. Rommel used them first in France at Arras. From battle descriptions they tore apart the Matilda 1s which were immune to everything else. It was apparently possible to see a tank moving in the desert which was kicking up a dust cloud out to 3000yds (2730m) and the British perception was that 88mm could hit and kill British tanks of this period at this extreme range. Poor British tankers in these conditions had no where to hide they could only advance and hope they would get in machinegun range (No HE on early British tanks) or bail. Not sure how keen there Luftwaffer crews would be to engage with tanks in Russia – they were big target as well and they could not rely on Desert conditions to pick of the enemy at extreme ranges. There are stories from Normandy of a German infantry officer telling a 88mm crew that you will engage those tanks and get a medal or I will shoot you with my pistol! I suspect they were not entirely the wonder weapons people think they were. I think we have to have a simple laymens understanding of what advatage curved armour gives in the CMBB system and how you determine if a critical part of a tank is hit and how often this happens. Then you get a better figure of when T-34s and KVs will start to die in the game. What are peoples thoughts on this then? (Ps I hope you are modelling riveted armour problems on Czech tanks in German service, that also plagued early British designs.) Different subject - but you may be getting the wrong idea of photos of killed Russian tanks with multiple hits. Seen close up pictures of T-34s where it looks as if every shot went through from the depth of the scoring - up close you could see that only one hit had actually gone all the way into the tank. The other possibility is that the German Tank crews were not sure if they had made a kill or not so kept putting rounds into it. You got this effect in the Gulf War when dead Iraqi tanks were killed again and again - as US and British tankers were not sure if they were really dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Sorry about that I seem to have posted before I was ready! Hope you forgive any all typos and mistakes - and things I could have put more diplomatically!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by Mark Gallear: 88mm L56 Flak (up to spring 1942) Kills anything up to 1000m Except front turret of KV2 and that will be about 980-990m! It very hard to say from Russian experience. If I remember rightly when Germans 88mm L56 Flak (up to spring 1942) first encountered KVs which held up their advance they called in Divisional artillery assets to blast them – they did not bring up 88mm guns. I know that the Luftwaffer crewed them and were trained to rapidly put shells in an area of space above them – they do not have proper gunsights to hit tanks but unlike 3inch British aircraft gun which had them separate they were at least on the gun. Gun commander could watch the fall of shot through binoculars and been 88m he should be able to see something. The model in the Tiger 1 would of course have had proper sights, as would later models of the gun. Rommel used them first in France at Arras. From battle descriptions they tore apart the Matilda 1s which were immune to everything else. It was apparently possible to see a tank moving in the desert which was kicking up a dust cloud out to 3000yds (2730m) and the British perception was that 88mm could hit and kill British tanks of this period at this extreme range. Poor British tankers in these conditions had no where to hide they could only advance and hope they would get in machinegun range (No HE on early British tanks) or bail. High Velocity FlaK had been used as successful tank killer from WWI. Even during the Spanish civil war Pzgr (Armour piercing shells) was issued to 8,8cm FlaK. By 1936 shooting AFV with FlaK was part of the training curricula for FlaK gunners. Halfaya Pass 15 June 1941 where the ledged of the desert 88 was born "The report of I.Abtelung/FlaK Regiment 33 indicated that this unit played an important role in the victory. Its guns opened up on the tanks at 2000 metres at 0500, knocking out one cruiser tank; they held fire until the opposing tank force approached to within 300 metres where dust did not obscure the target, and bagged 9 infantry tanks. The FlaK thus eliminated 14 of the 20 attacking tanks. Von Luck pulling his pistol on FlaK crewmen under the 3 FlaK Korp in Normandy is somewhat different to FlaK units that are integral to the Infantry/Panzer Battalions and Divisions. British MG tests also showed that the ball rounds for the 7,92mm Besa’s and the 303 could not penetrate the German/Italian gun shields at any range. [ October 23, 2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Combat reports from the tank battle at Saukotas in June 1941 credit SP 88s and 10cm K18 with the kills required to prevent 1.PD forward GHQ from being overrun. 88s had been used at Arras the year before to stop Matildas. I see no reason why they should not have been brought up again. I actually see little other use for the SP 88s that were present with 1.PD then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 :eek: opened a big can of worms on 88mm - clearly evidence it was used. I was questioning the crews ability to hit targets with it compared to trained tank and AT gunners. (Was fair put in Desert Experience.) Clearly everbody thinks they can. I was hoping people would comment on the kill potential of the diffrent German guns as against the early Russian tanks. I may have not got this right compared the figures to stated CMBB armour. Made it clear do not how in simple/general terms curved and rare "critical hits" work in system and if they change these guidelines geatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amedeo Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by Bastables: High Velocity FlaK had been used as successful tank killer from WWI. Even during the Spanish civil war Pzgr (Armour piercing shells) was issued to 8,8cm FlaK. By 1936 shooting AFV with FlaK was part of the training curricula for FlaK gunners. (slightly OT, sorry!) Bastables, could you, please, tell me where to find some useful info about the 8,8cm FlaK use against tanks during the Spanish Civil war? In fact I found references regarding its use against Republican tank units, but I was unable to find out the DOI for the Panzergranate (not that a T-26 needs more than an HE round...). Thanks in advance, Amedeo [double edit for spelling :eek: ] [ October 24, 2002, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: Amedeo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Originally posted by Amedeo: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastables: High Velocity FlaK had been used as successful tank killer from WWI. Even during the Spanish civil war Pzgr (Armour piercing shells) was issued to 8,8cm FlaK. By 1936 shooting AFV with FlaK was part of the training curricula for FlaK gunners. (slightly OT, sorry!) Bastables, could you, please, tell me where to find some useful info about the 8,8cm FlaK use against tanks during the Spanish Civil war? In fact I found references regarding its use against Republican tank units, but I was unable to find out the DOI for the Panzergranate (not that a T-26 needs more than an HE round...). Thanks in advance, Amedeo [double edit for spelling :eek: ]</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amedeo Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Thanks Bas! BTW what is thus the DOI for the Panzergranate that those sources give? Bye Amedeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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