Foxbat Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I've been working on an article for my website on tank unit orgs but the Mechanized Corps organisation is giving me headaches. For the article I've been relying mostly on Zaloga's "Red Army Handbook" which is generally a very good and complete reference work, but some things just don't add up. Especially the September 1942 Mech Corps structure has a few dark spots. First of all Zaloga includes 5 KVs in the September 1942 Mechanized Corps tank strength which do not seem to be included in any of the Corps' units. Secondly and to my great frustration he mentions the September 1942 Tank Regiment to have two Medium Tank Companies that are both triangular (as usual in soviet units of the time) and have 23 T-34. Now there simply is no way to divide 23 tanks in two triangular formations, so what gives? Normally a medium tank company would be 3 3-tank platoons plus a tank in the company HQ, ie 10 tanks. And with nominally no command level between company and regiment I get only 21 mediums in a two company regiment. Then in January 1943 things get even weirder as another 10 tank company is added and the number of mediums in the regiment becomes 32 :confused: [ November 30, 2002, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 This what I thought the regiment would look like: Except I need to put those extra T-34s somewhere [ November 30, 2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 First, it depends on the year and month, the Soviet formations changed a lot. However, A tank Corp in Spring of 1942 had: Two Tank Brigades One Motor Rifle Brigade This broke down to: KV tanks 20 T34 tanks 40 [8 of these were reserve and rarely did the unit have them] Light Tanks 40 The Motor Rifle Brigade broke down into: Three Motorized infantry battalions Each Battalion had: Three Motorized Rifle Companies Each Company had: THe rifle platoons MG Platoon The 32 tanks broke down this way: Nedium Tank Company: 3 platoons of 3 tanks plus HQ 1 tank for Battalion HQ 1 Tank for Brigade HQ By Feb 1944 rolled arounf, the TO&E changed to include: Three tank Brigades Heavy Assault Gun Regiment Assault Gun Regiment Light assault gun Regiment Motorized Rifle Brigade Changes were literraly by month. Most of the units took a long time before matching the TO&E, and many never had all their support elements like motorcycle recon and etc. The Units with KVs, that still had them [few did] would put them in the Heavy Assault Gun Regiment. Hope this helps... Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 I appreciate your effort, but my problem is only with the Mechanized Corps that seem to have more tanks then I can find in the Brigades. And especially the Tank Regiments of the Mech Brigades are an enigma to me, as they have more tanks then I would expect in the companies (extra HQ tanks? Reserve tanks? Imaginary tanks?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 3, 2002 Author Share Posted December 3, 2002 Any grogs in the know? I always thought a Tank Regiment was supposed to be a simple structure, no intermediate command levels, next to no inf or support. Just a bunch of tanks in a few companies. So what did I miss? [ December 03, 2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 3, 2002 Author Share Posted December 3, 2002 Hmmm Maybe I should change the thread name? Maybe "Naked vixen and the problem of the KV tanks in the September 1942 Mech Corps TO&E [includes Pics]" or something like that would attract the people to this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 For the naked Vixen.... http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/index.htm There were three types of Tank Brigades. The first type had a Tank Regiment, consisting of one heavy-medium and two light tank battalions, plus a Motor Rifle Battalion in its order of battle (overall 93 tanks). Two weeks later the Tank Regiment was changed and consisted of one heavy-medium and one light tank battalion plus a motor-rifle battalion (overall 67 tanks). The third type was created when it was discovered, that two HQ's (brigade and regimental) were too much for such a small sized unit (tank brigades often were not able to react flexibly to sudden threats). To&E was simplified, having 2 Tank Battalions and a Motor Rifle Battalion inside a brigade without a regimental HQ. Both types of Tank Brigades also had a recon company. There were one heavy-medium tank battalion (5 heavy, 11 medium, 20 light tanks) and one light tank battalion (31 light tanks). Sometimes light tank companies of heavy-medium battalions were rearmed with medium tanks when additional equipment was available. Heavy tanks usually means KV-1 or the very rare KV-2; medium means T-34; light most probably means T-60, BT or T-26, sometimes T-40 or rare T-30/T-40S. The recon company usually includes two or three platoons of armored cars (10-15 BA-10 and BA-20) and a recon motorcycle platoon. Later, on February 15th, 1942, a new T0&E was approved for the tank brigade - ID number 010/345 in Russian To&E coding system - consisting of two tank battalions with two tank companies each (overall 46-48 tanks). But that is another story. That is what I found so far... Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 Foxbat, Regarding the tank regiments that were subunits of the mech brigades in mech corps here's some possible help: Sept 1942 Tank Regiment: Headquarters & Services - Staff Platoon (1 T-34) - Signal Platoon (2 T-34s) - Reconnaissance Platoon (3 armored cars) - Truck Platoon 2 Medium Tank Companies - each: 3 platoons of 3 tanks, 1 HQ tank Light Tank Company - 3 platoons of 5 tanks, 1 HQ tank Antitank Rifle Company - 18 ATRS in 3 platoons January 1943 Changes to Tank Regiment: Headquarters & Services - Staff Platoon - Signal Platoon (2 T-34s) - Reconnaissance Platoon (3 armored cars) 3 Medium Tank Companies - each: 3 platoons of 3 tanks, 1 HQ tank Light Tank Company - 2 platoons of 3 tanks, 1 HQ tank Antitank Rifle Company - 18 ATRS in 3 platoons February 1944 Changes to Tank Regiment: Headquarters & Services - Staff Platoon (3 T-34s) - Signal Platoon (2 T-34s) - Reconnaissance Platoon (3 armored cars) - Maintenance Section 3 Medium Tank Companies - each: 3 platoons of 3 tanks, 1 HQ tank Submachinegun Company (94 SMGs) April 1944 Tank Regiment Headquarters & Services - Staff Platoon (1 T-34) - Signal Platoon - Reconnaissance Platoon (3 armored cars) - Maintenance Section - Truck Platoon 4 Medium Tank Companies - each: 3 platoons of 3 tanks, 1 HQ tank Submachinegun Company (90 SMGs) I can see no indication that heavy tanks were ever part of a tank regiment within a mech brigade. Up until March 1942, tank brigades (whether separate or part of tank corps) had a heavy tank company within their 2 tank battalions, giving them a total complement of 10 KVs. After March, though, heavy tanks were removed from tank brigades and placed in special heavy tank brigades with a total of 42 tanks (rising to 65 tanks when the TOE for heavy tank brigades was changed in November 1944). Also, from October 1942, heavy tanks were placed in heavy tank regiments. [ December 03, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Grisha ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 4, 2002 Author Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by Grisha: Foxbat, Regarding the tank regiments that were subunits of the mech brigades in mech corps here's some possible help:Great help in fact. Sept 1942 Tank Regiment: Headquarters & Services - Staff Platoon (1 T-34) - Signal Platoon (2 T-34s) January 1943 Changes to Tank Regiment: Headquarters & Services - Staff Platoon - Signal Platoon (2 T-34s)That not only explains the location of the "extra" T-34s, it also explains why the addition of 10 mediums resulted in an increase by 9 I can see no indication that heavy tanks were ever part of a tank regiment within a mech brigade. [..] After March, though, heavy tanks were removed from tank brigades and placed in special heavy tank brigades with a total of 42 tanks (rising to 65 tanks when the TOE for heavy tank brigades was changed in November 1944). Also, from October 1942, heavy tanks were placed in heavy tank regiments.A question answered, but a new question arises. How many heavy tank brigades were there, Zaloga only mention one (7th Guards IIRC) that was a reformed medium brigade. And another question too, I was under the impression that the heavies had all been siphoned of into regiments. Were the heavy tank brigades made up from two regiments or did they follow a different organisation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 4, 2002 Author Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by rune: For the naked Vixen....The naked vixen says to thank you. The third type was created when it was discovered, that two HQ's (brigade and regimental) were too much for such a small sized unit (tank brigades often were not able to react flexibly to sudden threats). To&E was simplified, having 2 Tank Battalions and a Motor Rifle Battalion inside a brigade without a regimental HQ.Was this realised after experience? Seems awful short notice, or was it an expedient measure that not only cut the lines of command but also overhead. Sometimes light tank companies of heavy-medium battalions were rearmed with medium tanks when additional equipment was available.Aagh, I have enough trouble keeping up with changes in nominal organisation.. sometimes I wonder if they just introduced these changes too confuse people :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Foxbat and Vixen, This may help you out... http://www.battlefield.ru/library/bookshelf/stats/stat11.html This one also has some great information... http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz2/glantz2.asp Rune [ December 04, 2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: rune ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 4, 2002 Author Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by rune: Foxbat and Vixen, This may help you out... http://www.battlefield.ru/library/bookshelf/stats/stat11.htmlI had seen it, but despite the authentic looking diagrams* the info has about 90% overlap with what Zaloga writes, so I have a sneaking suspicion that's where they got their info too Nothing wrong with that of course, but it means that it has the same holes as Zaloga's text. * Ok let me rephrase that, the diagrams seem to be adapted from authentic russian sources, while the context is from Zaloga (sometimes almost verbatim) or freom the same sources as Zaloga used. This one also has some great information... http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz2/glantz2.aspThat certainly looks very interesting, thanks very much. A bit more than I can digest in one sitting though Cheers, Lev [ December 04, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 From Foxbat: A question answered, but a new question arises. How many heavy tank brigades were there, Zaloga only mention one (7th Guards IIRC) that was a reformed medium brigade. And another question too, I was under the impression that the heavies had all been siphoned of into regiments. Were the heavy tank brigades made up from two regiments or did they follow a different organisation?I really don't know how many heavy tank brigades there were, but given that there was a TO&E for Guards heavy tank brigades in November 1944 I would suspect they were in some numbers. I'm beginning to think your suspicions may be right. They may not have been around until November 1944, since they were basically 3 heavy tank regiments with additional support. Here's their composition: Guards Heavy Tank Brigade Brigade HQ . Staff (2 heavy tanks) . HQ Company .. Reconnaissance Platoon (3 armored cars) .. Sapper Platoon .. Chemical Defense Platoon (basically lots of smoke pots) .. Signal Platoon .. Supply Section . 3 Heavy Tank Regiments (21 tanks each) . Motorized Submachinegun Battalion (403 men) .. Battalion HQ ... ATR Platoon (6 ATRs) .. 2 SMG Companies (each company: 9 LMGs, 2 HMGs) .. Mortar Company (6 82mm mortars) .. Antitank Company (3 SU-76s) .. Maintenance Company TOTALS: 1,666 men 65 heavy tanks 3 armored cars 3 SU-76s 19 armored carriers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 6, 2002 Author Share Posted December 6, 2002 Originally posted by Grisha: I really don't know how many heavy tank brigades there were, but given that there was a TO&E for Guards heavy tank brigades in November 1944 I would suspect they were in some numbers. I'm beginning to think your suspicions may be right. They may not have been around until November 1944, since they were basically 3 heavy tank regiments with additional support. I guess slapping three heavy regiments together and adding some (imho) minimal support was probably the most expedient way to create a number of superheavy units for the final push. Zaloga actually does mention earlier heavy brigades, that is he mentions that the formation of Tank Corps with one Brigade organized on a special 'heavy' TOE*. But he doesn't mention what happened to them in the summer reforms. * I presume replacing only the medium tanks with heavies, rather than all KV all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: ... And especially the Tank Regiments of the Mech Brigades are an enigma to me, ...What should be an enigma is the motorcycle battalion, since no two seem to have been the same but unique for each brigade... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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