Freak Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 I am looking for more historical Villars-Bocage scenario. Bil Hardenberger, I have been told you have a more historical Villars Bocage scenario. Can I have a link to your scenario, or give you my e-mail address for you to send the scenario to me? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Freak, I have one, but am in the process of re-doing it... the map I made originally had some problems with accuracy, the one I have made now (finished last night) is as close as one can get with CM's map maker. I will let you know when it is completed and ready for testing. BTW, thanks to Moon for supplying a detailed map of Villers-Bocage for my use. Cheers, Bil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SS Peiper Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Bill can you send it to me also. SS Peiper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 It would be nice to make a scenario where everything happens just as it happened in the real battle it portrayed. That is not possible, however, for a number of reasons. 1. The limitations of the game. Many things cannot be recreated in a game because you are limited by the things a game does not provide you. 2. Lack of historical information. Unless you can interview someone who was there, you are limited to a minimum of third hand information, often flavored by an author's bias. In addition, how do you know how much ammo each squad had, or what the names of all the squad leaders were, or where exactly each was located? Or how many trees were in the area? A couple of trees too many could block a line of sight and cause the scenario to take a different turn. And so on. 3. How the Game develops. You can't predict or dictate to the AI how it is to fight the battle. It may not choose to fight in the same way as the country fought in the historical battle. The AI may choose to send two or three units down road b instead of road a which the historical units used. 4. Unpredictable results can change the course of history again. What if a tank gets a shot and a kill of a tank that in the real battle was the hero and survived? Example, Wittmann scenarios. There is no guarantee that Wittmann and his tank will survive until the moment it was disabled by a 6 pdr AT gun in an ambush. What if Wittmann gets killed early on? Then is it no longer historical? So do you quit and start again? Good luck! So yes, you can set up a battle that is generally historical, but totally historical? Impossible! Now if you don't care about playability and just want a scenario done that reflects all the historical elements, you can get it. How well it will play and what the outcome will be may not be challenging at all, or may be impossible to win. And think about this. If you were able to recreate a totally, totally historical setup, exact # of men in each squad, all names and ammo supplies accurate, every hill and tree in place, would it still play historically? Probably not. The human element and the unpredictablity of the AI negates such a possibility. So when someone does design that "perfect" historical scenario that plays out EXACTLY like the real battle, I would really love to see it! Have you ever thought about if the real battle had been fought all over again, it could have had a totally different outcome? Some battles have hinged on one or two units being very fortunate and/or performing heroically. The chances of such a thing happening exactly the same way twice historically is absurd. How many "chance" elements affected the battle of Midway? But as soon as one of you has that "perfect" scenario, send me a copy. I want the one that plays out to the end just like the real battle. I can't wait to try it. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted November 16, 2000 Share Posted November 16, 2000 Excellent points Wild Bill. However, I personally, love a scenario that is as historically accurate as possible, if that makes it impossible to win, to me, is irrelevant. I want to fight the battle with the exact (or as close as I can get) same conditions as the historical forces involved. You are indeed correct though, once you have the units setup as close as you can, given the research materials you have on hand, and hit GO, you cease being historically accurate, it is now something different all together. This does not IMO spoil the fact that you are playing a historic battle... in fact, I have made a few historic scenarios (The Sunken Lane, being one...) that recreates the battle as close as possible, then I played it, using the historic movement routes, etc. and the battles do indeed play historically, or close to it... to me, the fun part of recreating Villers-Bocage is taking Wittmann's historic route, and seeing how close you can come. I will post the finished scenario once it is ready, for all to download. Cheers, Bil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted November 17, 2000 Author Share Posted November 17, 2000 Great Bill! I am excited to see the Villars Bocage recreated. I too agree with Bill Hardenberger. I enjoy having the ability to play more historical accurate set-up's as possible. This does not take away from the other maps and scenarios in CM fact or fiction. I enjoy all of the scenarios, and am grateful that BTS allowed such an editor available to its users. Bill here is my e-mail for you when you are done with your Villars Bocage scenario. If you are doing any other scenarios historical recreations or not, please let us know. damionprevo@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted November 17, 2000 Author Share Posted November 17, 2000 Bill, can you send me other historical scenarios/operations that you have created? (The Sunken Lane being one) Thanks. damionprevo@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 It all hinges on what you want in a scenario and what you can get, Bil. I highly respect your work and your intense desire for as much historical accuracy as possible. I think that is admirable. I congratulate you for it. In no way does my note minimize your efforts. I've supported both you and your work way back to the beta days of CM when we were, along with others on the team, working hard to make the dream come true. I remember well the excellent first terrain mods you did. You may remember it too. So I look forward, as I always have, to your fine work both in scenario design and also in the "mod" work you do. No one is trying to play down your talent or your devotion to your projects. And there is room for all kinds of scenarios, "totally" historical, historically flavored, hypothetical and arcade style shoot-em-ups. And there can be large ones, small ones, quick ones and slow ones. Let the "buyer" choose his own preference. Everone to his own tastes and that does not make one person's choices superior to those of another. That is what makes the world go round. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 17, 2000 Share Posted November 17, 2000 If you are looking for a more historical VB scenario then play the Villers-Bocage operation that comes with the game. (Just play the first battle of it) The Map is as accurate as you can get (Made from topos, over head aeriel recon shots of the day before and after the battle, reviewing the detailed film documentary and I even peronally walked the battle area in France.) The OB and set-ups are as exact as possible to where everyone was when Wittman took a left off the sunken trail and headed down to Villers-Bocage to see what's cooking. SO in that Op you are presented with what he was presented with at the start of the fight. After that it's up to you. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 That is a great OP. I love the amount of detail put into it. I had a lot of fun playing it as well. Wittman got knocked out early on. Mobius ruled that battle when I played it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 My biggest disappointment in the VB scenario was how the German reinforcements "beam into" the area. The Pz IV appeared in the middle of a group of Brit AFVs. It lasted four seconds without -- despite its elite status -- getting off a shot. There's no way a German tank could have reached such a position without being spotted or spotting anything. For that matter, the German infantry simultaneously appeared next to Brit infantry with the German machine gun materializing about 5 meters from a Brit squad. Fortunately for the Krauts, their elite status enabled them to eliminate the adjacent Brits without loss. I think the game's VB scenario should have the German reinforcements enter near the map edge a turn or two earlier and then advance to contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted November 21, 2000 Author Share Posted November 21, 2000 If you read the information given on the Achtung Panzer website (link found on battlefront.com's link page) Villars Bocage plays out a bit differently in the set up of Villars Bocage. In CM's version, there is no set up of a column of allied tanks halftracks and assorted vehicles for Wittman to blast. On Achtung Panzer, it is said that Wittman blasted an unsuspected allied column of vehicles blasting the frist and last vehicle to "lock in" the remaining tanks and vehicles within the column, allowing Wittman to openly blast away a whole column of allied tanks and assorted vehicles. Sound like fun right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted November 21, 2000 Share Posted November 21, 2000 I'm confused, Freak. You say there are no columns of vehicles for Wittmann to blast in the CM versions (there are more than one) but in the scenario version I did and in the campaign by Los, there are indeed columns along the road just outside of Villers Bocage. I'm sure Bil H has a column of vehicles in his too. WB ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted November 23, 2000 Author Share Posted November 23, 2000 Ahhh! I was confused! I didnt realize there were two Villars Bocage scenario's on the CMBO CD. Well that is good news! Thanks Wild Bill. I guess I was the one that was confused not you. [This message has been edited by Freak (edited 11-23-2000).] [This message has been edited by Freak (edited 11-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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