Help. British 1st Commando Brigade 1945.

[Doodlebug]

In 1945 1st Commando Brigade was attached to 11th Armoured Division to beef up the infantry content and use otherwise redundant troops. I understand the Brigade consisted of 3,6,45(RM) and 46(RM) Commandos. In total this Brigade provided the equivalent of two full strength infantry battalions. For the purposes of a scenario I am working on I figure on substituting British Paras for the commando squads but can anyone out there come up with some organisational details or sources for said information of what consituted a Commando? I am guessing, somewhat obviously given the above details, that each equates to a half battalion and may lack heavy weapons given the raiding heritage of the force. Alternatively would there be no difference from other British troops by this stage of the War?

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

In 1945 1st Commando Brigade was attached to 11th Armoured Division to beef up the infantry content and use otherwise redundant troops. I understand the Brigade consisted of 3,6,45(RM) and 46(RM) Commandos. In total this Brigade provided the equivalent of two full strength infantry battalions. For the purposes of a scenario I am working on I figure on substituting British Paras for the commando squads but can anyone out there come up with some organisational details or sources for said information of what consituted a Commando? I am guessing, somewhat obviously given the above details, that each equates to a half battalion and may lack heavy weapons given the raiding heritage of the force. Alternatively would there be no difference from other British troops by this stage of the War?

Oh, they're different -- Commando organisation is very different, and it's IMHO a great shame that CM:BO doesn't include them.

WO204/8397 gives the war establishment as notified in ACIs on 8th September 1943. I don't know of any later WE being promulgated; that doesn't mean there wasn't one.

Total authorised strength is given as 458 all ranks.

The Commando is commanded by a Lt-Col; 2-ic is a Major; one Captain acts as Adjutant, another as Admin Officer.

The Cdo HQ has a total strength of 89 all ranks (clerks, storemen, drivers, medics, armourers and so on). Weapons include 1 LMG, 1 PIAT, and 42 .45 pistols.

The commando has one heavy weapons troop and five rifle troops.

The heavy weapons troop is commanded by a Captain and has a total strength of 39 all ranks.

Troop weapons include 3 3" mortars, 3 .303" MMGs, 17 .45 pistols and 12 signal pistols.

Each rifle troop is commanded by a Captain and has a total strength of 66 all ranks

Each troop has 2 sections.

Each section has a section HQ of the commander (subaltern) and a sergeant, and two sub-sections.

Each sub-section has a L/Sgt, a Cpl, 2 L/Cpls and 9 Ptes.

Troop weapons include 1 PIAT, 2 2" mortars, 4 LMGs, 2 EY rifles, 2 sniper's rifles, 2 silent stens, 9 Thompson SMGs, 15 .45 pistols and 3 signal pistols.

A prominent note on the overlay giving the weapons allocations to each part of the organisations reads: "THESE FIGURES ARE NORMAL WAR ESTABLISHMENTS. Troop Commanders may use their own discretion re weapons for operational purposes and obtain additonal or alternative weapons from the RESERVE POOL."

"Commandos and Rangers of World War II" by James Ladd (BCA, London, 1978) gives an organisation for an RM Commando Troop in Normandy, 1944, which has each troop numbering 60 all ranks. The troop consists of two sections, each consisting of an

assault sub-section, a support sub-section and a no.2 sub-section.

The assault sub-sections had 11 men with 1 Bren, 2 Tommy guns and 8 rifles.

The support sub-sections had 5 men with 1 2-inch mortar, 3 rifles and a sniper's rifle.

The no. 2 sub-sections were organised as for the assault sub-section, but with 40 lbs of explosives distributed among the men.

WO 291/955, "Attack on Wesel", says that 1 Cdo Bde relied on "a liberal issue of captured panzerfausts" for anti-tank protection, which might explain the lack of PIATs in the organisation given by Ladd.

Some idea of the variability of "full" strength of a Commando can be gained from WO 291/975 on the Westkappelle assault, which gives assaulting strengths for 41, 47 and 48 RM commandos as 420, 387 and 432 all ranks respectively.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Doodlebug:

[snips]

For the purposes of a scenario I am working on I figure on substituting British Paras for the commando squads but can anyone out there come up with some organisational details or sources for said information of what consituted a Commando?

Oh, they're different -- Commando organisation is very different, and it's IMHO a great shame that CM:BO doesn't include them.

WO204/8397 gives blah, blah, rabbit, rabbit...</font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

... blah, blah, rabbit, rabbit...

... the paras will look about right, apart from the colour of the beret. A plea from the heart here -- it can't be too hard to mod them to have proper Lovat green berets, so I hope some kind soul will do so. Having Royal Marines wearing red berets really would be unconscionable.

I agree, but IIRC, for some odd reason the beret is hardcoded (ie, non-modable).

Be cool

JonS

[Doodlebug]

Thanks for the feedback Gentlemen. I couldn't ask for more. I am grateful for your efforts. I guess the hard coding issue will mean Para berets prevail but in all other respects you've confirmed my suspicions. Incidentally John D. did they replant the Oaks that blew down in that Storm a while back(can't remember for the life of me when) or is it now Sixoaks, Fiveoaks,Fouroaks, Threeoaks, Twooaks, Oneoak? Nooaks? Here Shep!

[Capitalistdoginchina]

My parents were living in sevenoaks at the time the storms blew down several of the famous trees.....can't remember how many were lost that night, 4 i think.

CDIC.

PS. John, do you have to be so vague LOL excellent detail!

[Soddball]

It was OneOak after 1987, but they planted a whole load of new ones.

I work in Sevenoaks (and went to school here) :eek: - and was lucky enough to be trapped at home for 2 school days after the 1987 hurricane. That was great

[Andreas]

If you work in Sevenoaks, you can as well come out for a drink to London. Share a cab with John or somefink. Thursday 1830 The George.

An 11th Armoured Division trooper quoted in Delaforce 'The Black Bull' has very unkind things to say about the Commandos' fieldcraft, when they were inserted into a bridgehead across the Weser near Stolzenau, close to where I lived for many years. Apparently they suffered high losses from artillery, because they did not dig in immediately.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

My parents were living in sevenoaks at the time the storms blew down several of the famous trees.....can't remember how many were lost that night, 4 i think.

I had the good sense to move to Newcastle-upon-Tyne the week before all the trees in southern England blew over, and stay there until it was safe to move back.

Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

PS. John, do you have to be so vague LOL excellent detail!

John D. Fiddlespoon (of Fiddlespoon, Grognard & Claptrap) stands up, sniffs, and addresses the bench:

"No, M'Lud. I can be more specific if you wish."

{drones on until all present relapse into slumber, and nothing can be heard but Fiddlspoon's voice and the sussuration of Lord Justice Cocklecarrot's snoring...}

Total strength is 458 all ranks.

The commando has a Cdo HQ, a heavy weapons troop and five numbered rifle troops.

The Cdo HQ has a total strength of 89 all ranks, with duties assigned as follows:

CO Lt-Col

2-i-c Major

Adjutant Captain

Admin officer Captain

RSM, RQMS, MT Sgt

Intelligence duties: Subaltern, L/Sgt, 4 Ptes

Tradesmen:

Clerks 1 Sgt, 1 Cpl, 1 L/Cpl, 4 Ptes

Pay clerk 1 Sgt

Eqpt repair 1 Pte

Non-tradesmen:

Batmen 5 Ptes

Batmen/drivers 2 Ptes

Drivers i/c Cpl, L/Cpl, 14 Ptes

Motor cyclists Cpl, 8 Ptes

Storemen Cpl, 4 Ptes

Attached Medical MO, 1 Sgt, 2 Ptes nursing orderlies RAMC

Armourers 1 Sgt 1 L/Cpl

HQ weapons include 1 LMG, 1 PIAT, and 42 .45 pistols.

The heavy weapons troop has a total strength of 39 all ranks, with duties assigned as follows:

Tp comd Captain

2-i-c Subaltern

Tp Sgt Sgt

Batmen-drivers 2 Ptes

Attached 1 Col RAMC nursing orderly

3" mortar section

Tradesmen:

Driver-mechanics 2 Ptes

Non-tradesmen:

Mor dets 1 Sgt, 2 Cpls, 6 Ptes

Drivers i/c 3 Ptes

Signallers 1 L/Cpl 1 Pte

Rangetaker 1 Pte

MMG section

Tradesmen:

Driver-mechanics 2 Ptes

Non-tradesmen:

MG dets 1 Sgt, 2 Cpls, 6 Ptes

Drivers i/c 3 Ptes

Runner Pte

Rangetaker Pte

Troop weapons include 3 3" mortars, 3 .303" MMGs, 17 .45 pistols and 12 signal pistols.

Each rifle troop has a total strength of 66 all ranks, with duties assigned as follows:

Troop HQ:

Troop comd Captain

CSM

2" mortarmen 2 Ptes

PIAT gunners 3 Ptes

Attached medical 1 L/Cpl RAMC

Stretcher-bearer 1 Pte

Batman 1 Pte

The troop had 2 sections.

Each section has a section HQ of the commander (subaltern) and a sergeant, and two sub-sections.

Each sub-section has a L/Sgt, a Cpl, 2 L/Cpls and 9 Ptes.

Troop weapons include 1 PIAT, 2 2" mortars, 4 LMGs, 2 EY rifles, 2 sniper's rifles, 2 silent stens, 9 Thompson SMGs, 15 .45 pistols and 3 signal pistols.

[Doodlebug]

Andreas, you are a God send. That's the very action I'm working on and my next message would have been for someone familiar with the region or area to cast an eye over my map and make suggestions as to any improvements required. Care to take a look? It's not quite ready but I've got the incentive to press on now. What with you knowing the area and John showboating the details I needed.

[Gary T]

I think the battles of this period/area are covered in 'No Triumphant Procession" - can't remeber the author off the top of my head as my copy is still at my parents house.

Cheers,

Gary.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Doodlebug:

Andreas, you are a God send. That's the very action I'm working on and my next message would have been for someone familiar with the region or area to cast an eye over my map and make suggestions as to any improvements required. Care to take a look? It's not quite ready but I've got the incentive to press on now. What with you knowing the area and John showboating the details I needed.

Sure, email is in the profile. I just have to find my CMBO CD somewhere...

[Doodlebug]

Gary, you are right. That particular book is staring down at me from the shelf and is a gold mine for late war British operations in the drive into Germany. Many of the actions are described at a low enough level to make them ideal for conversion into scenarios or operations. The opponents are interesting and varied too. Primarily the book focuses on the 2.Marine Infantrie Division, converted German naval crews, and which aquitted itself very gallantly. Andrew Fox asked for some scenario's for his newly modded Comets. He may just get them.

[JonS]

OK - I'll ask ... what's an EY Rifle?

Regards

JonS

BTW - The Pemberton offer still stands if you're interested.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JonS:

OK - I'll ask ... what's an EY Rifle?

It's a rifle with a grenade discharger cup. I'm not sure what kind of grenades it actually discharges, though.

Originally posted by JonS:

BTW - The Pemberton offer still stands if you're interested.

Yes please. How can I get payment to you to cover your expenses?

All the best,

John.

[JonS]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

OK - I'll ask ... what's an EY Rifle?

It's a rifle with a grenade discharger cup. I'm not sure what kind of grenades it actually discharges, though.</font>

[Doodlebug]

I've only just finished working through your extraordinarily detailed work on the composition of a Commando John and just wanted to thank you properly. Much appreciated. I intend to use your idea as presented. One further question I'll float to any interested party. As mentioned above by Andreas the 11th Armoured troops were highly critical of their behaviour in proximity to the enemy. To quote Major Noel Bell M.C. of the Rifle Brigade

"We were amazed after daybreak had broken on the 6th to see them walking about, seemingly quite oblivious of the enemy so close at hand, making no effort whatever to conceal their movements. In consequence a considerable enemy artillery barrage came down on our positions, wounding many of them, some seriously. To us trained for years in fieldcraft and concealment of movement, their lack of same left us speechless"

I appreciate that Commando's had an enviable record on special operations but in open warfare? What unit experience rating do you think appropriate for this type of action? I'm wavering around regular but the description above does seem to show a good deal of deficiencies. Does this sort of performance equate to green I wonder? Finally is anyone able to offer any additional snippets or links into other Commando actions during the period?

(edited for appalling typing).

[ June 12, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Doodlebug ]

[Andreas]

Delaforce in 'The Black Bull' has some info, but as always with him, it has to be consumed with care. I see what I can dig up on the weekend.

You should definitely make them 'fanatical', I think.