dogcow Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 I must really be missing something with this game, or it's just impossible. I've played both sides on the demo's "chance encounter" and I always just get shot to hell before the battle is half over while capturing maybe one objective. Playing as the germans I had 1 stug destroyed, then the other 2 the next turn, on maybe turn 7 or 8. One rolled up over a hill and sat there for a few seconds in front of 5 shermans, not aiming or firing or anything, just stopped (it had a target with los), before getting blown to kingdom come. The other 2 fired once each before getting blown away, one missing, the other doing "front hull penetration" or some such to a sherman, which did exactly nothing, the sherman was perfectly mobile, had all guns working, etc. My troops go "shaken", "panic", "broken", "routed", anything whenever they get shot at once by anything. Basically 1/3rd of my troops were "breaking" or whatnot at any one time. Panzerschreck guys couldn't hit the broadside of the empire state building. The breaking teams are always under C&C but it doesn't seem to matter. 2 of my mg42's had jammed guns and apparently "broke" or "routed" because of that. One smg squad actually "broke" and ran out of a heavy building *toward* the enemy line. I quit the german scenario after a sherman actually leveled a 2 story building, killing several smg squads. What am I possibly doing wrong? This game is impossible, when I quit that particular game it was at maybe the 15th turn and all 3 of my tanks were gone, most of my mg's and panzerschrecks were "routed" or killed. Anyone want to provide a basic walk through of either demo scenarios for those non veteran-army-commanders among us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 Friendly suggestion... read some books on real tactics, not c&c style rts crap use the terrain, mass fires on targets, use your mortars (make sure they or an HQ has LOS to target)!!! get the StuGs hull down (where only the gun) shows) and mass their fires on the Shermans.... if ya have an arty/mortar FO FO (no need for LOS here!)...use them to strip the Ami infantry away... BTW took me a try or two before I figured what would work... ------------------ unca pathy will show ya the path, if only he could find it himself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 Do you have the full game yet, DogCow? You speak of the demo. When you get the game and the manual and the tutorial and you have played a few of the smaller scenarios, you will get a feel for it. You can win. Its a learning process. When I came on the beta team 15 months ago, I was lost like you. Believe me, I was. And it was the Alpha version of the game. But I've come to learn it, actually win and enjoy myself win or lose. I share your frustration. I feel confident, however, once you have the game and the excellent manual, you will make some real progress. ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACTOR Posted July 15, 2000 Share Posted July 15, 2000 Dogcow, I've been there and felt that. Hell when I played VoT for the first time as the Amis I thought no sweat I'll walk all over these Germans...Boom Boom Boom...I didn't think that anymore. I have found that moving around the scenario at level one during set-up helps a great deal. You can then understand where the firing lanes may be and you can also ID any potential hiding spots for your own troops should they run into something they can't handle. Buy the game and try a few of the small scenarios. Once you get good, and you will get good, send me an e-mail and we'll PBEM. Enjoy! [This message has been edited by ACTOR (edited 07-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetherat Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 hey dogcow I'm jealous, I really am. I remember that feeling of frustration and anger. but I also remember the imense satisfaction when I understood what I was doing and saw my plan coming together. I thought I could help by reminding you of the basics. the entry level basics: 1. read and understand your brief and objectives 2. maticulously study the map 3. calculate what force you might need for each objective 4. plan your attack/defence using as many terrain effects to your advantage 5. execute your plan making adjustments according to changing situations I hope that these 5 points help you out. this game truly is fantastic to play - win or lose! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 A few more tips: 1) Use your leaders, and keep units in command and control. Click on any leader (platoon/company) and it will show you lines to all the units it commands. Brown lines are good-- those units are in C&C and derive benefits from the leader (reduced time for orders to take effect, stealth and combat bonuses, etc). Black lines are bad-- those units are bumbling about waiting to be taken out of action. If they break and there's not a leader to rally them, they're effectively eliminated. This is especially important to consider when you're playing the germans in VoT. 2) Line of Sight - check it often!!. The 3D in CM isn't perfect-- the trees aren't accounted for individally, the houses leak a little, a few other minor things, but it's *very* good. If it looks like there's LOS between two points, there probably is. 3) Cover, Concealment, and terrain-- on attack you want to take advantage of the terrain to allow your units to maneuver without being seen. On defense you want to set up in positions that cover the possible avenues of attack without exposing yourself. This means you want to be concealed so that when the enemy comes around the corner he gets blasted, and can't get LOS to your defender without going through the exposed area. 4) Make a plan, keep roughly to it, but realize that it's going to fall apart at the first shot. A good plan will have options to account for various possibilities-- attack in concentration and defend in depth, so that the loss of any one unit won't ruin the plan. 5) As mentioned above, read a lot of historical accounts. Try searching on the CM forum-- there are pointers to all sorts of historical reports from the military historians and other authors. They're very useful. 6) Play by email against someone (preferably better than you) and then trade passwords at the end (and comments) so you can see what the other player saw and did in response. 7) Read some of the after action reports at combat mission hq-- they really give tremendous detail on their plans, with movement diagrams and the works. Extremely valuable. [This message has been edited by chrisl (edited 07-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demangel Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 I can't say I was ever in your position when I played the Cm demo, I had played a number of IGOUGO Tabletop WWII sims before, and had a basic idea of how to play the game to begin with... Though I must admit the first time I played I did get my ass handed to me tactically if not totaly... But this was because I wasn't sure how the interfaces really worked yet, and hadn't gotten a feel for how units would behave under differen't circumstances... All the advice given to you is of the best kind you will get... CM is the best War sim you will ever play until Cm 2 comes out, or they make another based on another era... etc... The guys at bts (big time software) put in everything including the kitchen sink in this baby, even the demo shows it off nicely... I would say you can play this game without knowing what every tank in WWII was capable of and looked like etc, but it helps a great deal, since everything was modeled in ways no other game has even tried to do as far as I know. So what is my advice to you... Think of this game as if it was real life and less of a game... When that building colapsed it killed a bunch of your men, well thats what would happen in real life... Don't put your stugs in a hull down position and even against shermans your begging to get spanked... Heres a tip for that scenario... The stug has a better gun that the shermans and I think the armor is a lot better too, but it doesn't have a turret, so you must make sure you are facing the target, this will enable you to get more shots off.... Also a stug is not the kind of tank you use at close range in this mission... pick a good hull down position, preferably one that has overwatch (can guard) over as much of the map as possible, while limiting the enemies methods of attacking you... keep your tanks supported by infantry, and your infantry supported by tanks and arty, and think of it as real and you'll know more than most people do when they start playing this game... Good luck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogcow: Playing as the germans I had 1 stug destroyed, then the other 2 the next turn, on maybe turn 7 or 8. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I played this scenario at least eight times, and for the Germans, either keep your StuGs behind the hill across from the church, or introduce them to the far left of the field. If you want to keep them to the right of the church, ensure that if they are going to cross the ridge, they all do it at the same time, and that you are using hunt movement, not fast move (very bad for aiming) or move (still rather slow response from your StuGs if you do that). Keep them together, so you can do the equivalent of rapid-fire against the other tanks. Also, position yourself to where you just know the Shermans have to go, but stay where he can't see you while he's approaching. That way you will be waiting, not moving, while he will advance on your position -- your fire will be more accurate than his. And if he drives next to the church and you have three StuGs waiting for him, I can almost guarantee that thing will blow up into a ball of fire. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogcow: One rolled up over a hill and sat there for a few seconds in front of 5 shermans, not aiming or firing or anything, just stopped (it had a target with los), before getting blown to kingdom come. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This will happen if you are buttoned up, the crew can't see much through the vision slits. Remember to stay unbuttoned, at least at the beginning of an engagement. Also, were you in hunt movement mode, or just move or fast move? In hunt movement mode your crew is actively looking for things to shoot at, in the other two modes they are more passive. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogcow: The other 2 fired once each before getting blown away, one missing, the other doing "front hull penetration" or some such to a sherman, which did exactly nothing, the sherman was perfectly mobile, had all guns working, etc. My troops go "shaken", "panic", "broken", "routed", anything whenever they get shot at once by anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If I remember correctly, in Close Encounter a lot of the German troops are green troops -- teenagers recruited near the end of the war, people who weren't considered fit to server earlier in the war, but by the end the Germans rounded up anyone who could walk and gave them rifles. Also green troops could be qualified people, but who just haven't had much battlefield experience and so they break and panic really easily. Sometimes they just lay there, and get overrun instead of leaving hot spots. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogcow: Panzerschreck guys couldn't hit the broadside of the empire state building. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's hard to believe, but from what range? Remember you have to be within 100m to have a reasonable chance of scoring a hit, and then when the tank realizes what happens, your panzershrek team either should high tail out of there fast, or score a hit right away otherwise they are toast. It's best to sneak them to an advantageous position where you know your opponent will move through, then hide them. When your opponent is getting close, unhide them and watch the results. It can be very satisfying to know that a measly PzShk blew up a pile of metal on tracks. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogcow: 2 of my mg42's had jammed guns and apparently "broke" or "routed" because of that. One smg squad actually "broke" and ran out of a heavy building *toward* the enemy line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> heh heh don't you just LOVE green troops. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogcow: I quit the german scenario after a sherman actually leveled a 2 story building, killing several smg squads. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, that happens, and it makes for some pretty spectacular explosions. High-caliber artillery makes it look almost like a nuclear blast, it's great to watch esp. if it's your opponent's troops, of course. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogcow: What am I possibly doing wrong? This game is impossible, when I quit that particular game it was at maybe the 15th turn and all 3 of my tanks were gone, most of my mg's and panzerschrecks were "routed" or killed. Anyone want to provide a basic walk through of either demo scenarios for those non veteran-army-commanders among us?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you want to play PBEM against me, we can go through it if you want. Just e-mail me the initial PBEM at lori.pat@ns.sympatico.ca. Pick the Germans again, so we can go through the same thing you just went through. I can provide commentaries along the way, if you want. Within a couple of games you'll be good enough to beat the AI that comes with the game, provided you plan properly and play your cards well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrams Posted July 17, 2000 Share Posted July 17, 2000 Howdy! Do not give up !! This is very accurate happenings... I wonder what the failure rate is for "real" untrained officers thrust into battle ? Abrams out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Bob Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Dogcow: Sounds like you (or one of your subordinates) foolishly withdrew your troops' schnapps ration just before the lead started flying...I recommend it be reinstated forthwith, and is best administered with some sufficiently teutonic martial music blaring over the camp loudspeakers... Seriously, like others have advised you, just keep at it. I got annihilated the first few times I played (the demo); I've now gotten better enough to usually whip the AI, no matter which side I take (although I get quite bloodied in the process most of the time). Have fun, and keep the Jagermeister flowing! der bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 First time that I did Chance Encounter I did not realize the ground was damp and my 3 Stugs got immobilized in the grass right at the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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