cowards in the red army?

[pavlov]

I'm a little disappointed with the performance of the Red Army conscripts in Yelnia. I hereby request the programmers alter the full version to allow the Soviet player to place MG's behind advancing friendlies and mow them down if they dare to run away from battle (as seen in Enemy at the Gates ), for surely the Red Army can suffer no cowards!

[Chad Harrison]

So can we purchase a NKVD squad in a QB?

[Kuma of Finland]

After NKVD let me purhcase airplanes dropping leaflets like "Welcome Red Army! It's here to set your free from your fascist tyrannic leaders". After that Katjusha would sing the first round barrage!

(Actually happened in real life, too. Leaflets and barrages falling in the same location... And no, I don't think dying people are fun. I'm talking here in the same spirit than the front line soldiers with their black humour.)

/kuma

[Shosties]

You can generally assume some NVKD will be off map on the "safe side". When I had some conscript squads rout and run due to the spoilling barange in the Yelnia scenario, I just shrugged and thought I'd be seeing them later in an open grave or in a penal battalion for mine clearing duty (and I don't mean the probe and spade variety!).

[PLG]

I believe that Stalin said something to the effect of: "It takes a brave man to be a coward in the Red Army." That sort of says it all, doesn't it?

Paul

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by pavlov:

I'm a little disappointed with the performance of the Red Army conscripts in Yelnia. I hereby request the programmers alter the full version to allow the Soviet player to place MG's behind advancing friendlies and mow them down if they dare to run away from battle (as seen in Enemy at the Gates ), for surely the Red Army can suffer no cowards!

Set up an MG behind your frontline and area fire where you have cowardly troops. I'm sure that the "friendly fire" will cause a few casualties- thus getting rid of your cowards.

[V]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pavlov:

I'm a little disappointed with the performance of the Red Army conscripts in Yelnia. I hereby request the programmers alter the full version to allow the Soviet player to place MG's behind advancing friendlies and mow them down if they dare to run away from battle (as seen in Enemy at the Gates ), for surely the Red Army can suffer no cowards!

Set up an MG behind your frontline and area fire where you have cowardly troops. I'm sure that the "friendly fire" will cause a few casualties- thus getting rid of your cowards. </font>

[Shosties]

Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Zitadelle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pavlov:

I'm a little disappointed with the performance of the Red Army conscripts in Yelnia. I hereby request the programmers alter the full version to allow the Soviet player to place MG's behind advancing friendlies and mow them down if they dare to run away from battle (as seen in Enemy at the Gates ), for surely the Red Army can suffer no cowards!

Set up an MG behind your frontline and area fire where you have cowardly troops. I'm sure that the "friendly fire" will cause a few casualties- thus getting rid of your cowards. </font>

[Young_Dworkin]

What about German Penal Battalions? Does anybody know about them? I've never read anything about them, but I know that the Germans had them. After the war my father worked in Germany setting up distributorships for Armstrong Cork, Co. and one of his German employees told him that he had been thrown into a German Penal Battalion during the war. The guy made one indiscrete comment over the telephone: "Hello Hans! How are things going down there?" "It's complete ****, just like everywhere." (This was late '44 I guess). Zap! The next day the gestapo pays the guy a visit, and before you can say "oops" he's been posted to a penal battalion (defeatest talk, apparantly the Gestapo monitored the switchboards). He said they had to lead the attack through uncleared mine-fields and would be shot if they tried to retreat (sounds just like the glorious Red Army). Luckily, he managed to survive the war, but it didn't sound like fun. (Now that I think of it, he might have been wounded and captured by the Americans - if so, that would have been a real million dollar wound!)

I just don't think this sort of thing is modeled in CMBB. It certainly would add an interesting element to game play!

[Battlefront.com]

We did quite a bit of research into NKVD unit actions within the scope of CMBB battles. We even managed to get a couple of questions asked to an infantryman, and Hero of the Soviet Union IIRC) who somehow survived for the last half of the war as a tank rider (casualties were often 90%!). Anyhoo...

It would appear that the NKVD actions were generally more operational and strategic in nature. The closest documented account we found to CMBB's scale was from a German report where a Soviet force was routed and sent packing. They streamed back into the woods and out of LOS to the Germans. The battlefield was quiet, then all of a sudden... lots of SMG fire coming from about 400m off in the distance somewhere in (behind?) the treeline out of sight of the Germans. Next thing they know there is a "fresh" assault.

From what we can tell the NKVD weren't there to keep the attacking moving forward DURING the actual assault. Rather, they were there to make sure that repeated attacks were possible instead of the routed troops retreating from the frontline area or refusing to fight. However, it appears that the confrontations with NKVD troops generally happened in the imediate rear of the front and took a fair amount of time to translate into new action. This means, in CMBB terms, that it is *just* out of the timeframe for a single battle and not relevant to an Operation (i.e. because it happens inbetween battles, not during). Therefore, NKVD units were not included. Too bad, because we had a really slick system all ready to code if we found it realistic to have this stuff happening within a battle.

Mind you, we do not doubt for a second that such actions sometimes took place right in the thick of combat and had imediate consequences. However, it would appear that this was not the norm and therefore not a good place to spend our precious coding and testing time.

Young_Dworkin,

All nations had some sort of "punishment" unit system. The German's system (Strafbatallion) was not quite as brutal as the Soviet, but it was pretty bad. Punishment battalions were used for the most dangerous and/or exhausting jobs. For example, clearing mines under enemy fire. They were also only issued weapons on a "need to have" basis.

The basic concept was to utilize screwups, criminals, cowards, and other undesirable elements (including poor saps like you described who were just realistic!) in ways that saved "good" soldiers from harm. Assignment to a punishment battalion was temporary. If one survived your time there and obeyed orders he was allowed to go back to a normal combat unit and his record was supposedly cleaned.

There is a decent, if a bit over dramatic, German movie about one such unit. It is semi historical and gives a dramatized view into this rarely mentioned aspect of the German military system. The movie is called "Punishment Battalion 999" and was made in the 1950s. It is Black and White. The copy I have was released through International Historic Films. I bought it about 6 or 7 years ago so I have no idea if it is still obtainable.

I also have some documenation on these units somewhere, but I don't recall where. The source mentioned the numbers and rough histories of these units. There were *many* such battalions, mostly used on the Eastern Front.

Steve

[imported_argie]

I bet I can be a coward in any army.

[Nick Schieben]

There is also a book, which I just took off my shelf: Straf-battalion 999 by Heinz Konsalik, pub'd 1977. Didn't sound like a good spot to be in! The scenarios would be a bit too one-sided.

Regards

[Nowotny]

The Waffen-SS had a penal brigage, named 36th Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Sonderkommando Dirlewanger). Alan Clark's book on Operation Barbarossa went into some detail about this above divisions escapades in Poland.

Here's a snip from www.wssob.com:

1942: Hitler order unit expanded to 2 batallions. Additional men come from poachers, Russians, Ukranians and convicted felons from Wehrmacht.

more info at http://www.wssob.com/036divdir.html

Regards!

[Slapdragon]

The Movie "Strafbataillon 999" was rereleased on VHS in 1999, and is scheduled for DVD release next year, according to a hand photocopied flyer I got several months ago.

[K_Tiger]

If the SS would shoot at normal german units, they would pay a high price for it. Mostly, the soldiers were from the same town maybe pre-war friends and would stand together. When necessary they would turn and shoot back, if you ask me.

Also wouldn AH gave such orders, he hade from the beginnig alot fear from the Wehrmacht, the onlyst institution who could throw him from his place.

[gatpr]

I believe survivors of Soviet penal battalions had a notification attached to their records that stated (more or less) Attoned for his/her crimes with his own blood. There is a book "The Cruel Hunters" about the Dirlewanger Brigade. It's a tad grim.

[Aacooper]

I assume we'll be able to make and play scenarios with conscipt Soviet troops that are "fanatics"?

That'll certainly get the "Enemy at the Gates" feel going.

[Gaylord Focker]

Are there any accounts of Soviet Squads getting upset with the NKVD shooting at them and instead of assaulting the Germans, in turn assaulted the NKVD?