Roads, Scatt. Trees or Woods

[patboivin]

I am building a map, and noticed that when I pick roads within scattered trees, there is a thin strip of "scattered trees terrain" on each side of the road. That's fine.

If I were to pick the tile for building a road in woods, do the woods have any effect on enemy fire? The strip is so thin, I wonder if it has the same effect as scattered trees, and whether scattered trees beside roads have the same effect as, say, brush.

Thanks.

[Fionn]

Yes, the thin strip of trees HAS an effect.

The main effect for a thin strip of woods from my perspective is to confine tanks to the road in that tile since they can't maneuvre through the trees.

[patboivin]

Thankd Fionn.

[Gunsmithcat]

I wonder, the thin strip might also provide a blocked line of site? I haven't tried it, but that would be an interesting effect, providing some covered lanes to run around the map with.

[Fionn]

Yes, the thin strip of trees DOES degrade LOS somewhat but it is too thin to block LOS.

Remember that LOS blockage in CM isn't all or nothing... 5 pixels of woods+ a stone wall + 1 pixel of bocage can add up to 0% exposure...

It's all pretty complicated and realistic.

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Yes, the thin strip of trees DOES degrade LOS somewhat but it is too thin to block LOS.

Remember that LOS blockage in CM isn't all or nothing... 5 pixels of woods+ a stone wall + 1 pixel of bocage can add up to 0% exposure...

It's all pretty complicated and realistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn, I seem to recall from the tests I did that exposure is NOT additive across different types of terrain. It seemed like you got the best terrain cover available, and the other terrain had no effect, hence a unit behind a wall behind some scattered trees (assuming the trees do not block the LOS) gets the 30% exposure given by the wall, and the woods do not matter.

Jeff Heidman

[Iron Duke]

Hi Pat,

one thing to remember about using "road through woods" or the "road through tall pines" terrain is exactly what Fionn was talking about, all vehicular traffic will not be able to get off the road at all, or enter it for that matter. These streches are death traps which in itself makes a good map but if you overuse it or make it too long, you are really putting the attacker at a disadvantage, maybe even to the point where the map becomes unbalanced. (I know, had a few myself with my first map!)

By the way, don't you think a mixture of the 2.5 and 5 meter elevation interval setting would be a nice option? Or maybe have "half" elevation points such as: instead of 10 to 11 elevation (which as you know, if you are using the 5 meter interval this often makes an impassible cliff), have a 10 to 10.5 to 11 interval so that you can make a nice slope without having the damn hill over a kilometer across!...if you know what I mean? What do you think?

Are there any railroad bridges?

Anyhoo,

Have fun making your map(s).

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iron Duke:

Hi Pat,

These streches are death traps which in itself makes a good map but if you overuse it or make it too long, you are really putting the attacker at a disadvantage, maybe even to the point where the map becomes unbalanced.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I'll remember that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iron Duke:

By the way, don't you think a mixture of the 2.5 and 5 meter elevation interval setting would be a nice option? Or maybe have "half" elevation points such as: instead of 10 to 11 elevation (which as you know, if you are using the 5 meter interval this often makes an impassible cliff), have a 10 to 10.5 to 11 interval so that you can make a nice slope without having the damn hill over a kilometer across!...if you know what I mean? What do you think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know. I'm modeling the map of Arnhem, and it's really tough with the map designer. Buildings disappear if they are not on flat ground.

The Arnhem road bridge was a huge suspension bridge, there is no way to model that.

There is a long series of railroad tracks snaking through the town, and in places the tracks are inside an enclosure. The walls on either side should be vertical, at least one level I would think. Again I can't model that so I did my best using very steep rough ground.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iron Duke:

Are there any railroad bridges? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There aren't any railroad bridges. In fact there aren't any stone bridges with railroad tracks going underneath. Used the stone bridge with a road underneath instead.

I don't think it's a problem with the game, it's just that I'm too picky. I could easily double the number of terrain tiles to the map editor.

Also in Arnhem the houses are very narrow, and are all connected to each other like condos. On my map every house "represents" two to five houses, but there is no way to model this in the game.

The houses in the game don't look like houses in Arnhem, either. They look more like houses in Alsace, France, or parts of Germany. But then you can't expect BTS to model every type of house in Europe, it's just not possible.

I posted something about suspension bridges on one of the forums, but since then I realized that suspension bridges would have to be a tile that stretches, because there is no repeating pattern. Regular stone bridges are a pattern. So this probably can't be done at all.

A cathedral would be nice, I imagine someone out there would have a blast modeling a gothic or roman cathedral. Maybe if someone explained to me how we can build our own mods, I could replace the church with a cathedral or a chapel -- but probably the church is of a certain size and can't be expanded to cover more ground.

So far I have the map of Arnhem itself, I have to build one or two more maps to cover the landing zones and the approaches to the city itself. It's taking me so long! And it's really hard to build a good, realistic map.

This is still the best game on the market right now, in my opinion.

I had planned to buy Starfleet Command because I used to play Star Fleet Battles as well as ASL, but Starfleet Command keeps getting pushed further into the future. Eventually I will probably buy it for $5 in some bargain bin...

[Fionn]

That's not my experience Jeff.

[Loki]

Doing a Mod isn't too difficult Pat.All you have to do is open the .bmp with an art program.You could even use Paint to do it.But bear in mind that the Mod will effect all scenario's that use that building.

The editor could use more buildings among other things.But given the fact that BTS is all of 2 people,I think they did an excellent job.I am sure it will be expanded in the future.Maybe even with an expansion??

[patboivin]

I wonder if the creators of CM thought that getting version 1.03 out the door was going to be some sort of "end goal" for them. (Notice MadMatt went to Germany for a vacation, that tells me they had this set as the end of a stage and some people are taking a breather before the next stage begins). That after shipping 1.03, they would be concerned about CM2, i.e. modeling new tanks and infantry, but that the game engine is there so things would be a little easier from then on.

With all the suggestions that have been pouring through the forum, I'm sure they had to revise that way of thinking. heh heh

They must have a list of things to do so long that it rolls onto the floor like an old scroll...

I agree with you Loki that they built a masterpiece. I had thought of building a game myself at some point, but judging from what the other games could do, I figured it was just too complicated a project to juggle, or that computers couldn't handle dozens of units at the same time, in 3D.

What I mean by a project being too hard to juggle, is I heard that NASA could NOT land on the moon again, they forgot how they did it the first time. The engineers who worked on it retired, or are dead. And there is so much bureaucracy there now that they just would not be able to manage such a project again. I suspect too that they have been infested with bureaucrats and academics on tenure. Witness the last two probes they sent to Mars, they couldn't do it. I think there is a real limitation to what humans can do, esp. when they have to work in concert. Also the compensation systems we have now prevent the completion of large projects. Witness the landmarks that we now see as ruins, like the pyramids, or those fortresses in the Andes made of blocks so heavy that we couldn't lift them with a crane, yet they carried the blocks up mountains and fitted them perfectly together. Our civilization just doesn't allow for big projects.

Our skyscrapers for example are made up of the cheapest materials structural requirements will allow, sheathed in glass. Nothing is built to last.

I know that writing a computer game isn't on the same scale as those examples, but you get my point. Recruiting many programmers and keeping them focused, motivated to complete just one project is very difficult. Many people keep glancing at their resumes, thinking "Hmm. I did this now, maybe I can jump ship and get a higher paying job elsewhere. Or start my own company."

People may complain about the graphics not being like Quake III, but that game (and others like it) only manage to model a handful of creatures at a time, and it's always seen from one point in the model. BTS managed to let us see what happens from any angle.

Since I started playing CM all the other computer games have been gathering dust. I had planned to buy Star Trek Armada and Starfleet Command because I liked Star Fleet Battles a lot, but this keeps getting pushed forward into the future.

[Fionn]

LOL.

You gotta love these conspiracy theories .

Patboivin,

Matt is a TESTER. Nothing to do with BTS. Same as myself. Sure we are quite involved with the game but the idea that Matt or anyone else would plan holidays around a "hobby" ( which is what this is for us) is just weird.

Me, I'm on holidays too right now and just lazing around all day ( no change there then ). The reason? Simple, academic scheduling has August being the month I have free. Nothing to do with 1.03.

[patboivin]

So BTS is only two people?

That's hard to believe.

[patboivin]

Fionn,

I am a little annoyed that you would say I was spawning a conspiracy theory. It's the first time someone has ever accused me of that!

Maybe you were just flaming me.

I don't think there was anything offensive in my post, I don't understand why you reacted this way.

[Los]

That's right BTS is just TWO people and in fact only one of them is a programmer. Not that they don't get substantial help from others on a variety of issues, (Testing research, scenario design etc. etc.) but all programming and coding goes through just one guy, Charles. So obviously they have to be very carefiul about prioritizing their work load.

As for "end Goals" there are no end goals, CM will continue to improve, be modified or whatever, same as CM2 will continue forward. There's a grey line between wwehere one ends and the other begins because anything done on improving the CM product translates over to CM2.

Other than that your rambling diatribe on NASA and/or other "large projects" was amusing.

[patboivin]

Thank.

I try.

[Fionn]

Oh for Christ's Sake where has your sense of humour gone?

I said ( and I quote) " LOL.

You gotta love these conspiracy theories "

I put a smiley on the end and an LOL at the front. It should have been obvious to even a blind and deaf llama that I was amused and not posting a flame at all. Grow a sense of humour someday.

Christ, sometimes I wonder why I even bother hanging around here.

[patboivin]

You're right Fionn -- I've going to bed too late, the past two weeks. In fact, since I got my copy of CM in the mail.

It's OK