Runyan99 Posted June 9, 2002 Share Posted June 9, 2002 I checked the unofficial FAQ, but I could not find an answer. Does anyone know if Naval Infantry are to be included? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Bump. I've been wondering this as well. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 hmm. I wonder enough to give it a boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeybutt Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Bump n' Grind I don't care but I'll boost this to the top anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Have you checked the FAQ? I mean have you REALLY checked the FAQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by Panzer Leader: Have you checked the FAQ? I mean have you REALLY checked the FAQ? PL, I did a search for the word "naval" and "marine" on each of your FAQ thread's pages. Nothing came up. If you have a link to this information, please post it. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted June 10, 2002 Author Share Posted June 10, 2002 Um, I checked it again. I could not find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Okay, I was thinking one of those interviews mentioned it (Gamespot maybe?) but I could be wrong, it seems they only mention the Axis minors. Hmm, will dig a little deeper tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Does anyone have the TO&E for a naval Brigade of 1941, or how it differs from an ordinary infantry brigade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: Does anyone have the TO&E for a naval Brigade of 1941, or how it differs from an ordinary infantry brigade?I might have that at home -- I'll check tonight. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Weeeeelll, they wear blue don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted June 10, 2002 Author Share Posted June 10, 2002 Does anyone have the TO&E for a naval Brigade of 1941, or how it differs from an ordinary infantry brigade? Not exactly, but my source tells me that they were all armed with semi-auto rifles and submachine guns. (In Deadly Combat, Gottlob Bidermann, Unoversity of Kansas Press) Bidermann runs into them at Sevastopol, where they constituted a large part of the Soviet garrison there. I also believe they figured prominently at Leningrad, although I would have to double check that. [ June 10, 2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: Does anyone have the TO&E for a naval Brigade of 1941, or how it differs from an ordinary infantry brigade?I was pretty sure it was in the Red Army Handbook, and that since BTS has specifically stated that they are using that book as a source, I'd assumed Naval Infantry was going to "make the cut." Can someone with a copy on hand really quick check and see if they're in the Handbook? It should be noted that there were both Naval Infantry and Naval Rifle units. The naval rifle brigades were Red Army rifle brigades composed of navy personnel, while the Naval Infantry had a separate organization and may have fallen under control of the Red Navy. I'll be able to check when I get home this evening; this is all IIRC. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by Runyan99: Bidermann runs into them at Sevastopol, where they constituted a large part of the Soviet garrison there. I also believe they figured prominently at Leningrad, although I would have to double check that.Yes to both. They also figured prominently in the fighting around Novosibirsk in the Taman peninsula. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 D'oh. Zaloga. Proves you should not have two discussions on esoteric grog stuff on two boards at the same time... Scott, just checked through this again, but apart from two pictures and a comment that 'as war went on they adopted the garment and equipment of the infantry' I could not find anything. Maybe I am dense? I will respond to your last email tonight. Sorry it took so long. I am currently awaiting a stash of Red Army officer memoirs printed in the erstwhile German Democratic Republic. I am drooling at the thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Aw, crap. I knew they had Soviet airborne in there, and I clearly remember the picture of naval infantry, so I must have assumed that he had a naval infantry TO&E in there as well. That's no good. As always, Charles Sharp has some stuff on them, but, almost certainly, not quite down to the Combat Mission level. I'll see what I can find. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 I think they were pretty active on the Black Sea coastal areas in 1942. I was also under the impression that in the early years they wore Black hence their nickname. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Here is the most pertinent quote from their online interviews, also the most recent if I have my figures straight: HomeLAN - What new units will be available for Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin? Steve Grammont and Madmatt - With 5 years of combat to model the amount of different units is truly staggering. At the broadest scale we now have German Waffen SS, Heer, Fallschirmjager, Gebirsjager and Volkssturm units. Italian, Hungarian, Romanian and Finnish troops. Soviet Army, Airborne, Mountain, Ski and Partisan units. Hmm, no mention of Soviet Naval Troops, though even mountain and Ski troops were mentioned. I honestly don't know. I guess if they had different TOEs than they will probably be included, but without them, I would have to guess probably not. An official answer would be appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Reich Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 An earlier thread on Soviet Naval Infantry and CMBB if this helps at all... http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=022883 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 It appears that the organization during 1941 was (go figure) a mess. Sharp writes that there was only one brigade-sized unit of naval infantry at the beginning of the war, but they immediately began creating units of varying sizes, including "Naval Groups, Special Groups, Fighter Groups, Special Battalions, Naval Regiments, Regiments of Naval Infantry, Brigades of Naval Infantry, Naval Brigades, Naval Rifle Brigades, and specialist units like ski regiments and armored trains." By the end of 1941 they pretty much had things ironed out, though: Whereas the rest of the Red Army had adopted the term 'rifle' (strelkovaya) for all the foot soldiers, units organized by the Soviet navy were 'Naval Infantry' (Morskaya Pekhota), and similar units organized by the army with naval personnel were 'Naval Rifle' (Morskaya Strelkovy).Apparently during the war some 500,000 naval personnel entered the ground services, and many of these were used to form 42 naval infantry brigades and at least 30 naval rifle brigades. It appears that you can roughly approximate naval rifle troops with normal rifle troops, according to Sharp; while there are some relatively minor differences in the TO&Es, they come during the early period of the war, at a time when TO&Es were usually in no way indicative of what a unit might actually have on hand at the time. I don't know enough about these units to be able to say what specific equipment they'd have had, but organized by the Red Army, it was likely to be exactly what a normal rifle brigade would have received. I do not know if, by nature of their "naval rifle" status, they retained certain equipment or uniform items. Naval infantry, on the other hand, does seem to have a different organization. Sharp has them keeping the same battalion structure throughout the war. It consisted of three rifle companies and support, which included a machinegun company with 12 HMGs, a mortar company with 16 82mm mortars, a chemical defense platoon that included six flamethrowers, and an artillery battery with 4 76mm howitzers. The naval infantry company consisted of three rifle platoons, a mortar squad with 1 50mm mortar, and a machinegun section with 2 HMGs. Each rifle platoon consisted of four 12-man squads, with 1 LMG in each. This is all from Sharp's Soviet Order of Battle in World War II series; it is usually fairly good but I would really like to have another source to back it up. If anyone else has any information along these lines, I would very much like to see it. I hope this is of some use to those that are interested. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 I have this as the broader organization of specific Soviet Marine Brigades participating in the fighting on the Taman peninsula: 83d Marine Bde: 15th, 16th, 17th, 144th, 305th Marine Battalions; 83rd SMG Co.; 83rd Engineer Batt. and a support battalion (composition unkn.); 255th Marine Bde.: 4th, 14th, 142nd, 322nd, 327th Battalions; 255th Engineer Battalion; 255th SMG Co., 255th Mortar battalion (82mm mortars) and a support battalion. 323rd Marine Battalion (5 Cos.) I don;'t have more specific TOE information, though I am looking for it. The fighting in and around Novorossisk was nasty and intense -- and made a strong impression on a certain Commissar by the name of Leonid Brezhnev. I hope to draft several scenarios regarding this fighting. I also would like to look at the fighting around Leningrad, including the initial attacks and the lifting of the seige. I wonder if trucks will be able to cross Lake Ladoga? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 All useful information. However the question is will they be modeled in the game? Perhaps horse drawn Black Death naval infantry/marines! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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