Range for Wittmann Tiger Knock-Out

[rexford]

Reading through accounts of Michael Wittmann's death, couldn't find range info. Or missed it (I'am near retirement age and things go by so fast).

Anyone out there familiar with the ranges involved in the destruction of Wittmann's last Tiger? Would appreciate some help with this.

I remember (subject to many failings) that the Sherman crews with 75mm guns were not enthusiastic about their chances, they believed that their ammo would bounce off the Tiger sides. And that the 75mm Sherman hits did bounce.

This inquiry is really related to T34 performance against Tiger side armor. T34 76.2mm APBC penetrates 81mm at 500m, Sherman 75mm APCBC penetrates 82mm at 500m. Just trying to see how one round did in actual combat against Tiger side, and then guessing what other would do.

Russian Battlefield vet interviews stated that T34 would defeat Tiger side armor at 500m or less, but closing to that range was considered suicidal (suggests T34 crews might be afraid to get that close to a Tiger).

Thanks for any help that is offered.

[ November 24, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: rexford ]

[CombinedArms]

This subject has been discussed several times in this forum, with the consensus view being that that Wittmann's Tiger was killed by a Firefly (hence 17 pounder) commanded by a British tanker with a name like Eakins. Franko R. has made a special study of this for his August Bank Holiday scenario. Judging from that scenario, I'd reckon that the range was roughly 1000m; maybe a little more. Anyway, unless you believe the alternate story that Wittman was killed by a British Typhoon, there seems to be some agreement that he was killed by a 17-pounder, probably at a fairly long range.

Not sure where that leaves your question about the Sherman 75. I think you can get a kill on Tiger flank armor from 500m or so, but it's by no means a sure thing.

For what it's worth, I was watching a History Channel show on the 3rd Armored Div, and a Sherman tanker said he had to get to 600m to have a chance to kill a German tank from the side, while they could kill him from 2000m. I'm guessing he was talking about the Tiger. You've got a better chance with the Sherm76, but give me the Firefly every time.

[ November 25, 2002, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Kingfish]

I've seen accounts that state the range at 700 / 800 meters. Ken Touts 'a fine night for tanks' goes into detail about this particular engagement. I think it even shows a sketch of the battlefield from one of the vets who was there at the time (maybe even Joe Ekins himself).

Besides Franko's scenario I would also recommend you look at 'Cintheaux-Totalize' from Der Kessel.

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Note the position of the towed 17pdrs AT guns in the woods north of the Petite Ravine, and the Tigers of the 101st outside Cintheaux. From what I read, the Tigers took a more or less direct path up the road towards Gaumensil (sp?) and thus exposed their flanks to the 17s. The point where the Tigers come into LOS of the guns should give you a decent range estimate.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

This subject has been discussed several times in this forum, with the consensus view being that that Wittmann's Tiger was killed by a Firefly (hence 17 pounder) commanded by a British tanker with a name like Eakins.

I'm afraid I know nothing about the range, but Joe Ekins was the gunner who is normally credited with the kill, not the TC, and his normal job was driver . Ekins was part of the same regiment as Ken Tout (County of Northamptonshire Yeomanry), so there may be more details in Tout's books, but I don't have them to hand at the moment.

Edited to add a quick 'Doh!', Kingfish already suggested looking at Tout.

[ November 25, 2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[offtaskagain]

From the debates around here it appeared the British estimated the range at 700m and the Germans estimated 800m.