Please don't let this happen again.

[Dave H]

First, I know CM:BO is a finished product. This is a request for the future Western Front version.

I am completing a PBEM scenario set in an area with lots of bocage and hedges lining the roads. I had several Canadian universal carriers supporting a platoon of infantry defending in a field.

One of the carriers (which I "knew" could not pass through bocage) was positioned at a gap in the bocage. After a few turns of machine-gunning infantry, it spotted a German armored unit. To my amazement, the carrier reversed across the road and backed right through the bocage on the other side! :confused:

Since then I've done some searching through the archives and found quite a bit of discussion about Allied tracked vehicles being allowed to pass through bocage. I'm not questioning BTS's decision to allow all Allied tracked vehicles in July '44 or later to pass through bocage, to simplify the existence of the plows added to tanks. I hope future versions will distinguish between vehicles with and without such equipment, and the engines to use it.

My concern is allowing any vehicle to reverse through bocage. I don't care what kind of hedgerow cutter is mounted on the front of a tank, it won't help it back through the bocage.

I wouldn't think that this would create a big problem in implementing, when the time comes.

[Conscript Bagger]

bah! first read, then post.

[ August 05, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Offwhite ]

[Durbish]

You didn't say whether the carrier was succesful in going through the bocage, I didnt think they could...

I am aware that certain allied tanks have this ability but it didn't think it was all allied vehicles.

If your unit just backed into the bocage and became stuck, it seems like a reasonable situation to me. Trying to escape death and all...

Overall however I dont think anyone was really happy with bocage in CM would expect Charles and comapany to revamp it for any return to the west.

[Dave H]

Originally posted by Durbish:

You didn't say whether the carrier was succesful in going through the bocage, I didnt think they could...

I am aware that certain allied tanks have this ability but it didn't think it was all allied vehicles.

If your unit just backed into the bocage and became stuck, it seems like a reasonable situation to me. Trying to escape death and all...

Overall however I dont think anyone was really happy with bocage in CM would expect Charles and comapany to revamp it for any return to the west.

The bocage slowed the carrier about as much as a tissue would. It backed completely through it with little to no hesitation.

I'm still searching, as it appears this has been covered somewhere previously. I'm using the words "bocage" and "reverse" in my search, but I haven't found it yet.

Found it! A thread from January 11, 2001 titled "Shermans moving through the bocage in reverse". The memories of some of the members here are astounding.

[ August 05, 2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Dave H ]

[Silvio Manuel]

As long as it's fully tracked & an Allied >= July 44 AFV, it'll go thru the bocage. That must have been funny looking...I guess I would rather see that than have my tank fire smoke at the worst second. Still the best game around...

[ August 05, 2002, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Michael Emrys]

Keep in mind that tracked vehicles could go through bocage even before the plows were attached. The problem was that they couldn't go through the earth banks at the base of the bocage. They would climb over them just like any earthen berm, knocking down brush and trees on the way. But in the process of doing that, they exposed their lightly armored bellies to whatever AT assets were on the other side. The Allies were losing a lot of tanks that way and needed to find a way to penetrate the berms. The Cullen Plow was only one technique, but it was the easiest to manufacture and employ, and therefore became the most popular.

Michael

[Dave H]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Keep in mind that tracked vehicles could go through bocage even before the plows were attached. The problem was that they couldn't go through the earth banks at the base of the bocage. They would climb over them just like any earthen berm, knocking down brush and trees on the way. But in the process of doing that, they exposed their lightly armored bellies to whatever AT assets were on the other side.

I remember seeing similar examples in that hyper-realistic movie "The Battle of the Bulge". On the dusty plains of the Ardennes, the plucky American tankers (Telly, who loves ya?) waited to fire until the bellies of the unstoppable German tanks were exposed.

I just want to request that when BFC returns to the Western Front, the ability of vehicles to reverse over bocage should be very limited. If tracked vehicles have the ability to reverse over bocage, the Germans should have equal ability with the Allies. It's a bit too bizarre to watch a carrier effortlessly back over an obstacle that stops Tigers, Panthers, and Stugs in their tracks. Maybe if they had tried reversing they could make it, too.

[ryddle]

With tanks & carriers going right over the trees, was there any chance of them becoming high-centred? I haven't seen very many photos, however, I would expect that the trees were fairly small if it wasn't a source of concern?

-r

[TSword]

Yes couldn't agree more, one of the darker spots in CMBO !

The whole Bocage thing was that the cutter allowed the allieds an easy way to CUT the bocage so they could savely overcome it AND to produce firelanes for the followers (So one can give the other firesupport for instance, or the following footsloggers, which otherwise would have to take their bayonets to come through).

A tank could go through bocage if it was necessary at a significant higher risk of loosing a track or overtaxing the gearbox and exposing his underbelly to enemy fire, but it could be done. So BTS decision in CMBO can only be explained by lack of time to do it properly. (Who would be foolish enough to play a bocage battle in human vs. human without severe penalties for the allieds ???)

In russia it was quite common russian practice to hide tanks in forests or even attack through them (It used a lot of fuel and time and ruined tanks, but it may pay off in a surprise attack on the enemy..), many trees where relatively thin birchs.

Greets

Daniel

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by TSword:

Yes couldn't agree more, one of the darker spots in CMBO !

The whole Bocage thing was that the cutter allowed the allieds an easy way to CUT the bocage so they could savely overcome it AND to produce firelanes for the followers (So one can give the other firesupport for instance, or the following footsloggers, which otherwise would have to take their bayonets to come through).

One of the very few things that INFURIATED me about CMBO was that the AFVs that broke through the bocage (in the game) did not leave gaps that could be used by infantry and wheeled vehicles.

:mad:

Michael

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

One of the very few things that INFURIATED me about CMBO was that the AFVs that broke through the bocage (in the game) did not leave gaps that could be used by infantry and wheeled vehicles.

:mad:

Michael[/QB]

Yea, and also no gaps which could be used by the Germans, also, in any counter attacks...

[JonS]

Originally posted by ryddle:

With tanks & carriers going right over the trees, was there any chance of them becoming high-centred? I haven't seen very many photos, however, I would expect that the trees were fairly small if it wasn't a source of concern?

-r

There is at least one reference to such an event in Hastings' Overlord. As I remember it, at German tank commander on a foot recce came across an Ami Sherman stuck on top of a bocage embankment, struggling to move either forwards or backwards, with no success. On the way back to his tank the German was annoyed to trip over a 'faust he could have put to good use a few minutes earlier.

Regards

JonS