Kwacker Posted May 29, 2001 Share Posted May 29, 2001 No spoilers here. I'm currently PBEMing August Bank Holiday - an absolutely fascinating scenario - probably the best I've played to date. I love the historical simulations - and this one is a great one! Thanks Franko! I'd love to know the precise historical outcome. Franko obviously did a great job of carefully crafting the terrain and researching the real battle but I'm wondering : a)Are the opposing force compositions close to the real battle? What was the historical outcome? I found the following references on the forum (provided by Franko) which I'll try to get hold of, but in the meantime can anyone fill me in on the above? Reynolds, Michael. STEEL INFERNO: 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy, Dell Publishing, 1997 Simpson, Gary L. TIGER ACE: The Life Story of Panzer Commander Michael Witmann, Schiffer Military History, 1994. Tout, Ken. A FINE NIGHT FOR TANKS: The Road to Falaise, Sutton Publishing, 1998 Veterans Affairs, Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted May 29, 2001 Share Posted May 29, 2001 SPOILERS AHEAD! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kwacker: No spoilers here. I'm currently PBEMing August Bank Holiday - an absolutely fascinating scenario - probably the best I've played to date. I love the historical simulations - and this one is a great one! Thanks Franko! I'd love to know the precise historical outcome. Franko obviously did a great job of carefully crafting the terrain and researching the real battle but I'm wondering : a)Are the opposing force compositions close to the real battle? What was the historical outcome? I found the following references on the forum (provided by Franko) which I'll try to get hold of, but in the meantime can anyone fill me in on the above? Reynolds, Michael. STEEL INFERNO: 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy, Dell Publishing, 1997 Simpson, Gary L. TIGER ACE: The Life Story of Panzer Commander Michael Witmann, Schiffer Military History, 1994. Tout, Ken. A FINE NIGHT FOR TANKS: The Road to Falaise, Sutton Publishing, 1998 Veterans Affairs, Canada.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the compliments..lets see if I can answer your questions... a: As close as I can get, given the various sources. The allied armored dispositions are "within a tank or so". I started with a basic complement, and deducted casualties that were inflicted on Northants during the preceding' nights march (the so-called "Night March"). The German armor is as accurate as possible..although the EXACT number of Jpz IVs is unknown..its based on the actual casualties the 12th SS took in the days prior, etc. The Polish Armor is somewhat accurate, but I beleive there were MORE tanks involved than what is depicted in the scenario..however, many of these tanks would have been far (say 1km) off to the Allied left flank, so probably should not have been included anyway. The actual amount of tanks accompanying Wittman varies depending on the source, but I used the most common number. Wittman did not even have his OWN tank, of course, but a command tank with a smaller ammo load (this is, perhaps anally, reflected in the scenario--Yes, I'm a geek). The infantry dispositions are accurate, I believe. The Germans actually had a depleted regiment, which was not more than battalion strength. They came in on the right with the JGPz IVs, for some reason. b. Historical outcome? I would say the Germans won an operational victory, because they completely disrupted the Allied timetable by having the temerity to attack while extremely outnumbered. However, the Germans never seized the town, and were forced back with terrible losses -- some twenty plus armored vehicles. They got the worst of the point-blank armored duel that raged around the ravine. Further, their infantry never got a foothold on the town. The British lost about an equal number of armored vehicles..but the Poles were virtually massacred while recklessly charging over open ground. The author of "Fine Night for Tanks" referred to it as a "points victory." Nothing I have designed has got quite the attention of this scenario, for some reason. Thanks for the compliments! Franko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwacker Posted May 29, 2001 Author Share Posted May 29, 2001 SPOILERS!!!! Thanks for the reponse Franko - much appreciated. In my PBEM (we are about 25 turns in) we've had some very entertaining close quarters tank duels in the orchard which my opponent and I have named the "Orchard of Death". The other area of heavy action has been beside the strip of woods between the ravine and town. My Brit Shermans have generally had the upper hand and with those lovely PIATs accounted for nearly 2/3 of the German armour for the loss of about 15 Shermans. Part of the Polish armour has also done well having located itself in the hollow at the end of the ravine with great flank shots on anything moving directly into the village and good line of sight to the top end of the ravine. German infantry has reached the outskirts of the village but given the relative armour losses I would not press their attack - at least not in real life!!!! I've learnt that all tanks are equal at 50m! My opponent (who is less experienced than I against humans) has learnt the value of recon and the dangers of pushing armour forward without a well deployed infantry screen. I'm having fun - thanks again!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted May 29, 2001 Share Posted May 29, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franko: SPOILERS AHEAD! Nothing I have designed has got quite the attention of this scenario, for some reason. Thanks for the compliments! Franko<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Spoilers.... Some thoughts about why this has gotten so much attention (BTW, I think Augen Zu! is about as good and I'm looking forward to playing several others.) 1. Historical interest. The death of Wittman is fascinating as is the moment of the Allies big armored breakout. The valiant Poles rushing to the rescue is cool. And the attention to historical detail is stunning. 2. The huge tank battle. On a larger scale than most any other. And no one can resist one of those. 3. The balance of forces--Tigers, Mark IVs and JgPzIVs vs. Fireflies and Sherm75s makes a fascinating mix. Fireflies can kill Tigers and JgPzIVs, but can be easily killed by Mark IVs--which can in fact kill all Allied tanks. Sherm75s can only kill Mark IVs, unless they get a lucky flank shot. So there's a complex rock/paper/sissors being played out. 4. The terrain. Beautifully rendered, and with a complex mix of open spaces and vital cover. 5. Enormous tension in the early phases. Not much firing when I played it as Allies for 6-7 moves, except for a few Sherms off on the right flank, but a tense marshalling of extremely powerful forces. Then the inevitable massive explosion. I've played both sides against the AI and think it's probably harder for the Germans. The key for German players is to read the briefing carefully and follow it's advice about the right avenue of approach. Against the AI, when I was Allies, the Axis never tried to enter the orchard, which I had stocked with tanks hub to hub. On the other hand, when I was Axis, the AI didn't put ANY tanks in the orchard. Recognizing key terrain features aint the AI's strong suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted May 29, 2001 Share Posted May 29, 2001 This scenario is very instructive... You really discover some new tactics. I've great success with tanks pack while lonely ambushed "marauders" were often spotted and destroyed before they can act... When you play a scenario like this one all QB seems annoying ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts