AT Gun Placement?

[Warmaker]

Since we're talking about AT defenses I'd like to add a few things regarding the Germans. Charlie Rock brings a point on AT defenses on the flanks of your expensive JgPz/JgPanther/JgTiger, or any other cat. Many Allied players will rush the flanks to attack the less protected flanks (or worse yet, rear) of these expensive assets. The German player has at his disposal alot of cheap but effective AT assets for these flank gaurds:

* PaK40 75mm (67pts @ Regular): Moderately priced but capable of taking on any but the most heavily armored tank frontally. Has a lower blast value than the Allies' 75mm guns but has a killer penetration value over those lower velocity guns. The PaK40 IMO is the first thing you should think of in almost any case in selecting AT defenses. Oh, and it's pretty accurate to boot.

* PaK38 50mm (36pts): This humble, light ATG is very oftenly overlooked (as with all small calibre ATGs) but in the proper setting are a great (but cheap!) asset. It's penetration values aren't great since it won't penetrate a plain vanilla Sherman frontally but it can kill it easily on the flanks. However, in those flank rushes, many an Allied player will favor the Greyhounds and Stuarts for these rushes. The German player should always expect to be outnumbered and the relatively cheaper Greyhounds and Stuarts doesn't help his cause any more. The PaK38 gives the German player a cheap alternative to dealing with this goblin screen since it can penetrate the Stuarts and such frontally VERY easily. To add to this they possess a very respectable ROF. Contrast this to the cost of a Stuart (95pts @ Regular) and Greyhound (73pts). Trading even one PaK38 for one of these is a "fair trade."

* The 75mm and 105mm Recoilless Rifles are interesting (40pts/59pts). Like the PzSchreck, they use hollow charged rounds. The 75mm version I feel is poor since I have trouble penetrating a Sherman frontally at times. It's bad for me since I'm used to the sure-kill PzSchreck. The 105mm RR does a pretty fair decent job in dealing with most armored threats. The huge bonus with the 105mm RR is that it has a blast value of 77. It can tear infantry to shreds if left unmolested. The RR's though have a slower ROF than the traditional ATGs that we are most familiar with. If you feel the need to experiment or are lavishly endowed with points feel free to toy with the 105mm variant for it's dual ability. But acting as your main means of an AT defense for your flanks I suggest to look elsewhere. On a significant note: The R.Rifles have a low velocity. The 105mm one fires only at 335m/sec. This equates to a VERY poor performance at extended ranges (except for stationary/immoble targets). Shooting at moving targets with RR's at I'd say more than 200m is asking for trouble.

* The 20mm FlaK (21pts) and 37mm FlaK (52pts) are nice and deadly to act as flank gaurds. They're deadly accurate and can punch through very light armor such as HTs. The 20mm doesn't have a good chance of penetrating a Stuart frontally (much less a Sherman) while the 37mm has a fair chance of killing a Stuart at that facing. The small calibre FlaK guns are often hated by Allied light armor enthusiasts but the 37mm is highly reviled by them. The FlaK guns are insanely efficient on killing the numerous HTs that can be found (those blasted .50 cals they carry!) and in the long run removing these can earn the gratitude of your infantrymen. Oh yeah, the 37mm FlaK has a blast value of 26. Can you say infantry meat grinder?

* The 88mm Raketenwerfer43 Puppchen, at 26 pts is pretty weird, but can be deadly to ALL Allied armor. Like the Recoilless Rifles it has a low velocity and uses hollow charged rounds. It is the predecessor of the Panzerschreck IIRC but is a larger, carriage mounted beast. Treat it as a short ranged ATG since it too has a low velocity of 150m/sec and a maximum range of 500m. My preferred engagement ranges for this is at 125m or less.

An ideal setup for one flank detail in a 1K point game for me would consist of at least the following: 1 PaK40, 1 PaK38, 1 20mm FlaK, and 1 HMG42 team. The PaK40 can deal with the most threatening armor that pops up while the PaK38 can clear the more thinly armored Stuarts and Greyhounds. Maybe it can p!$$ off a Sherman to help the PaK40. The 20mm FlaK can button up approaching armor but more importantly it can quickly kill HTs and such. The HMG42 team is there to help suppress some of the irate enemy infantry. I would prefer to have them all as Regulars too. With this setup it comes up to about 145 points, just 25 points more than a regular Jagdpanzer IV/70. You'll get more guns firing than a Jagdpanzer.

If possible be sure to support these flanks with infantry. Panzergrenadiers/FJ are too lavish and expensive for this but plain old Rifle platoons fit the bill nicely. If even affording a platoon is too expensive another HMG42 team would be quite good.

[Redwolf]

There are a number of problems here.

First of all the arc of possible attacks. On the typical crappy quickbattle map, very wide but not very deep, there is too much space to cover. The space is so much that you cannot afford to cover them with expensive AT guns, no way.

The only cost-effective solution is small AT or flak guns to pick off light armour, small howitzers to hold up infantry, and then a Panzer IV/70 or Jagdpanther to deal with heavy tanks. The Jagdtiger sucks for gun damage and turrets are a needless luxury.

Another big problem for guns is the inefectivness of MGs. You need rifle platoons to defend the guns, expect in very favourable terrain where the guns are on a forward slope firing over a valley to a ridge. You cannot use MGs as bodyguards since they can't hold rushes.

Or in other words, unless you make an agreement with your attacker that he will not hog the map edges too much, the good guns are quite worthless.

What I would like for defense is making the Marder and Nashorn cheaper so that you can use a real self-propelled AT gun without feeling like an idiot that you didn't buy StuGs, Hetzer or Jagdpanzer.

[Warmaker]

I was trying to avoid using armor in the examples I was using since the original posting was regarding the use of guns. I do agree with you a bit on favoring things like the Panzer IV/70 and Jagdpanzer IV (for me, armor protection and mobility for those unexpected enemy maneuvers). It's just that playing all-infantry can be quite fun instead of relying on armor.

As far as those QB maps go, I can get by really well with the PaK40 in almost all the maps I get dealt with. With wider arcs, I never EVER place the PaK43 since it turns so slowly. With the mentality of trading an ATG for a tank at the very least doesn't go well with my stomach when I consider a PaK43/41 costs 114 pts. Contrast this to a versatile PaK40 and I'll always go with the '40. The PaK43 series of ATGs do get that nice blast value that the '88s possess though.

In using the heavy ATGs, I prefer the "keyhole" method. The only way I would put such heavy ATGs with wider arcs is if playing a large map where targets can be engaged 800m or further. Engaging at those ranges lessens greatly my traversing speed penalties. Since they're engaging at longer ranges much smaller changes to traversing the ATG is only required. It's only when targets start popping up at around 200-300m that I worry for my big ATGs.