Lt. Kije Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 In my quest for anything at all to make life hard for KV-1s in 1942, I have hit upon the Marder III. Could someone enlighten me as to two technical points? 1. From what I can figure out, Marder II vs. III differ in that the II wheels around the battlefield on the Pzkw II chassis and the III does so on the Czech 38(t) chassis. Is this incorrect? Are there other important differences? 2. Both seem to be armed with the (excellent for 1942) Pak 40 75mm anti tank gun (L43 for the II, L48 for the III, right?), listed in at least one of my (dubious) home library sources as penetrating greater than 90mm armor, 30 degree slope, at 1000 m. Perhaps a bit optimistic, but the question is: In real life, was the Pak 40 in both the II and III? I bring this up because the CMBB Marder III brandishes a 76.2/L51 gun with characteristics suggesting it is one of the many Russian anti tank guns captured in 1941. I'm not saying this is any big deal. The Russian 76.2/L51 is probably roughly equivalent to a Pak40/L48. I'm just curious, trying to pin all this stuff down. Maybe the Germans opportunistically mounted captured 76.2/L51 guns into a lot of the Marder III vehicles, while the default Marder III came with the Pak40? I note with approval that there are Tungsten rounds available for the captured guns! Love that T. What's the scoop? -- Lt. Kije Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 A quick check: <table align=center width=400 border=1> <tr><th>Name</th><th>Chassis</th><th>gun</th></tr> <tr><td width=100>Marder II </td><td width=100>Pz II</td><td width=200>75mm Pak40/2 (Sdkfz.131) or 7,62 Pak36® L/54(Sdkfz.132)</td></tr> <tr><td>Marder III H</td><td>PzKw 38(t)</td><td>75mm PaK 40/3 L/46(Sdkfz.138) or 7,62 Pak36®L/54(Sdkfz 139)</td></tr> <tr><td>Marder III M</td><td>PzKw 38(t)</td><td>75mm PaK 40/3 L/46</td></tr> </table> Source: F.M. von Senger und Etterlin, "Die deutschen Panzer 1926-1945", ISBN 3-7637-5988-3 [edited for source] [ November 14, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Lindan ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Kije Posted November 15, 2002 Author Share Posted November 15, 2002 Sorry, Lindan. I don't get it. Thanks for the nice table, but I cannot find a reference for the Pak 36® 76.2/L54 listed in your table anywhere here at home and I seem to have misplaced my best bookmarks for German armor web sites. Are you saying the CMBB Marder III that says '76.2/L51' is mounting this 36®, not a captured Russian 76.2/L51 anti tank gun? The penetration tables for the CMBB Marder III match exactly the penetration tables for the CMBB captured Russian 76.2/L51. What is a 36®, anyway? I thought a Pak 36 was a 37mm gun available at the start of the war. More puzzled than ever. -- Lt. Kije Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 The 36 ® must be part of the German designation of the 7,62 PaK L/51,5. The ® stands for Russian as far as I know. Encyclopedia of German tanks of World War 2 refers to 7,62 PaK 36 ® L/51,5, Russian FK296 rebuilt to German specfications and rechambered to take a PaK40 cartridge. Large stocks of this gun had been captured. Encyclopedia lists it as used on - Sd Kfz 132 or LaS762 (Pz II chassis). I´m not sure if this is the Marder I as my source doesn´t mention the term Marder I. - Sd Kfz 139, Marder III, VII, VIII (PzkW 38t chassis) - the Marder II is only listed as having the German 7,5cm PaK40/2 From what I´ve seen there´s also a 7,62 FK36 ® L/51 (the Russian 7,62mm M1936 field gun) on a five ton semi track vehicle used in Africa. Maybe that´s where the L/51 comes from. Surely there were many front-line modifications as the Germans were desperate to mount everything with a better punch than their 37mm and 50mm tank and AT guns on something that moved. [ November 14, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Nolloff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 German weapons with a letter in crackets such as teh ® above are those captured from otehr nations. ® = Russia, (f) = France, (d) = Denmark, (j) = Yugoslavia, (g) = Greece, (e) = England (I think), etc. In some cases the same weapon used by different nations will have a seperate designation for each - eg if the 37mm Bofors AT Gun might've been used by Poland and Yugoslavia it will have a Pak number with a (p) for the ex-Polish ones, and the same Pak number with a (j) for the ex-Yugoslav ones. Note that the length of a weapon in calibres (eg 7.62cm L51) can vary depending on just how much of the barrel is measured. Some nations measure only the rifling, while others measure the whole barrel that has the calibre, and I think a few even included teh length taken up by the shell case. So the L54 and L51 are the same weapon, but posibly the L54 includes the whole barrel length, the L51 just the rifled length....or something like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Lindan those Marders are sooo underdog. Rematch? Let me know when you have time. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Originally posted by Mike: ® = Russia, (f) = France, (d) = Denmark, (j) = Yugoslavia, (g) = Greece, (e) = England (I think), etc. Belgium - ( France - (f) Great Britain / Canada - (e) Hungary - (u) Italy - (i) Netherlands - (h) Poland - (p) Soviet Union - ® United States of America - (a) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Kije Posted November 15, 2002 Author Share Posted November 15, 2002 OK. Many thanks for the education. To net it out: Marder II and III vary in their chassis, but this is of little importance in CMBB. Both may carry either the German Pak 40 or the Russian 76.2/L51, which are pretty equivalent in penetration. No meaningful difference in CMBB usage. Both can take out the KV-1, with some luck, but neither has enough armor to block a robust sneeze. -- Lt. Kije Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts