Forced MacOS X boot = no CMBB?!?

[karsten]

Hmm...

That begs the question, what version of RAVE is in Jaguar (10.2)?

If 1.6 is in 10.1, maybe 1.7 is in 10.2?

-or maybe I'm asking too much.

Which leads to the next question:

If 1.7 isn't in 10.2 and we won't be able to boot into OS 9, does that mean that we'll be stuck doing some kind of crazy shift/spacebar boot into classic to disable RAVE and then have to run CMBB in a crappy emulation mode?

I sure hope not!

[chrisl]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by karch:

Unless Apple forces everyone to update their ROMs killing OS9:

No, I am sorry, you are quite wrong. A future version of OSX (not 10.2, we know that already) could very well (read: probably will) include and require a version of the Classic Environment which functions only in Classic mode via OSX and cannot be booted. Think OS9 can't be made unbootable? Drag the OS9 Finder out onto the desktop and see if OS9 boots. Better have a system CD handy -- you'll need it.</font>

[karsten]

If 10.2 or 10.2.x requires a firmware update and that update includes the elimination of booting directly into OS 9, then even your PB will have the problem. Partitions or no partions.

Sure, you can decide that you'll never update your PB to 10.2, but then you're just screwing yourself going forwards.

Unless, of course, you buy an upgrade to your older PB - but then you still can't boot into OS 9.

But, you could always shell out for a newer mac and keep your older PB on 10.1.x / 9.2.x just to play CMBB. But that's a bit over the top, isn't it?

[karch]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

No, I am sorry, you are quite wrong. A future version of OSX (not 10.2, we know that already) could very well (read: probably will) include and require a version of the Classic Environment which functions only in Classic mode via OSX and cannot be booted. [/QB]

I agree. But you are changing the subject. I NEVER said that Apple wouldn't allow Classic to be booted into natively (Classic being the term for 9.2 that OS X boots to allow non X programs to run in a OS 9 environment). It's irrelevant to my point, which was:

Short of forcing everyone to upgrade their ROMs, there is nothing Apple can do to stop any current computer from booting into OS 9. If you currently own a Mac, you have an OS8 or 9 disc and it will ALWAYS be able to boot your computer and play CM. Even after you load OSX 10.2 Jaguar. If it wants to install a newer version of Classic, let it. Just make sure you reboot back into your OS9 system and not the Classic (which currently is OS9 with certain other extensiond) system.

There is nothing Apple can do to make your computer stop runnin OS9 and Combat mission. You are very very wrong.

[karch]

Originally posted by karsten:

If 10.2 or 10.2.x requires a firmware update and that update includes the elimination of booting directly into OS 9, then even your PB will have the problem. Partitions or no partions.

I'll bet you $100 it doesn't happen.

Every Mac has a different ROM. They would need to build and test ROM updates for every Mac that will run OSX. Every beige G3, iMac, eMac, iBook, Powerbook, PowerbookG4, G4. And every revision of each of those boxes with different ROMs.

Think about it... it aint gonna happen.

[ August 05, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: karch ]

[chrisl]

Originally posted by karsten:

If 10.2 or 10.2.x requires a firmware update and that update includes the elimination of booting directly into OS 9, then even your PB will have the problem. Partitions or no partions.

My PB is incapable of firmware update, short of pulling the ROMs and replacing them. The bronze keyboard PBs can accept a firmware upgrade, but there have been none for the Wallstreet series. That's why I said that unless they come to my house and pull the ROMs, they can't keep me from using OS9. The Apple web site does say that 10.2 will run on my machine, probably with a few features that don't work (as is already the case for 10.1, since I can't upgrade the firmware.)

[karch]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead: The sad fact is, at best BTS is relegating Mac users to the back of the bus -- stuck with older hardware and running a version of the OS Apple stopped developing three years ago. No matter what you might say, and no matter what explanations, rationales, or work-arounds are offered, nothing can make this situation not suck.[/QB]

I agree the situation sucks, but to assert that BFC is relegating Mac users to the back of the bus is rediculous. Apple screwed us, not BFC. Get that straight.

BFC built a great game with the tools Apple said would be around for the long haul and then pulled the rug out from under them. But to say that because BFC doesn't have the time to build and entirely new engine for Mac users, they are relegating us to the back of the bus, is wrong.

Now if they completely rewrote the Windows version to work with XP but wouldn't do it for Mac users, I'd agree with you, but that's not the case.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Boy, I sure am hearing a lot of the Mac user inferiority complex ringing out loud and clear in this. Hey guys, whatever happens is still months in the future. What's all the hand-wringing about? Is this a tempest in a teapot or what?

This of course is nothing but a deliberately inflammatory remark. I suppose its "deeper meaning" must be that you aren't a Mac owner and would be just as happy if nobody else was.

Given that this board is (as nearly as I can tell) dedicated exclusively to issues related to CM, I hope you will forgive me if I take a "pass" on your invitation to discuss many of the world's greater and more pressing issues.

Pardon me also if I take this opportunity to express my deep disappointment with BTS's failure to address OSX compatibility in the next generation of CM. Last I'd read, this was going to occur; now we're led to believe it will occur in generation three.

As the situation stand now, I will be taking a "pass" on CMBB -- which is a shame, because I was really looking forward to it. Unless BTS chooses to explain the situation otherwise, I have to anticipate the very real prospect of losing the ability to run the game within a year if I follow Apple's upgrade path for OSX or buy new hardware.

This situation is not "months in the future," it is here and now by any useful definition. Relegating the Mac version of CM to OS9 is tantamount to killing it off. So yes, for fans of the Mac and CM this is an important issue.

[karch]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

................. I have to anticipate the very real prospect of losing the ability to run the game within a year if I follow Apple's upgrade path for OSX or buy new hardware.[/QB]

Good grief. What is wrong with you. Do I need to hit you over the head with a bigger stick?

There is almost NO WAY that running Jaguar will stop you from running Combat Mission. Yes, hardware coming out soon will not boot OS9, but we don't know when that is. There are really fast Macs out right now that run OS9 and CM just peachy.

Pay attention and quit spreading wrong information about Macs, OS9 and CM. If you really believe that your current 800Mhz G4 will cease to boot into OS9 once you install Jaguar, please inform me how you think that will happen and I'd be happy to discuss it. But I think you are just plain wrong about that part of the discussion and keep stating it like you are right. You're not.... not unless I'm missing something. Please enlighten me and I'll eat my words.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by karch:

I'm not prepared to say who is at fault, but keep in mind that Apple committed to OpenGL at least three years ago, and OSX has been a fact on the ground for just as long. CM is the only application I own that will not run successfully in OSX, either natively or in Classic mode.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by karch:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

................. I have to anticipate the very real prospect of losing the ability to run the game within a year if I follow Apple's upgrade path for OSX or buy new hardware.

Good grief. What is wrong with you. Do I need to hit you over the head with a bigger stick?

There is almost NO WAY that running Jaguar will stop you from running Combat Mission. Yes, hardware coming out soon will not boot OS9, but we don't know when that is. There are really fast Macs out right now that run OS9 and CM just peachy.

Pay attention and quit spreading wrong information about Macs, OS9 and CM. If you really believe that your current 800Mhz G4 will cease to boot into OS9 once you install Jaguar, please inform me how you think that will happen and I'd be happy to discuss it. But I think you are just plain wrong about that part of the discussion and keep stating it like you are right. You're not.... not unless I'm missing something. Please enlighten me and I'll eat my words.[/QB]</font>

[chrisl]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

Pardon me also if I take this opportunity to express my deep disappointment with BTS's failure to address OSX compatibility in the next generation of CM. Last I'd read, this was going to occur; now we're led to believe it will occur in generation three.

This situation is not "months in the future," it is here and now by any useful definition. Relegating the Mac version of CM to OS9 is tantamount to killing it off. So yes, for fans of the Mac and CM this is an important issue.

The "next generation" is CM II, not CMBB. CMBB is based on the CMBO engine, and is thus committed to RAVE for 3D graphics. AFAIK, BFC has never claimed otherwise and I've been reading the forums regularly since the beta demo.

CM II will include an engine rewrite, including the switch to OpenGL, and will add all sorts of features that the current CM engine doesn't allow. IIRC, the first theater for CM II will be the Mediterranean.

It's worthwhile to note that CMBO, and presumably also CMBB, was developed on a Mac. The problem that BFC has, and which has been stated repeatedly, is that their programming staff is one person, and the time needed to convert a complex program like CM to work with OpenGL would be prohibitive. Because of the size and business model of BFC, they can't likely afford to hire additional people to convert the engine to OpenGL (or if they could the return wouldn't justify the cost).

As noted above, any machine that can run CM now, will almost certainly be able to run CMBB in the future. Mac users tend to upgrade equipment much less often than PC users (who always seem to have a new card or motherboard and associated driver problems) and thus most current mac owners will be able to run CMBB for a while. If we can take past performance to predict the future, BFC will get CM II out in something like 2-2.5 years. It will run on macs available then, and I wouldn't be surprised if it runs on todays macs, too. Because mac users upgrade less frequently, the number of people left out in the cold due to complete OS incompatibility is likely to be not very large. Given that wargamers are a weird bunch, there will probably be more than a few who keep (or buy on the cheap) an old machine to play CMBO/CMBB. I still have an old LCIII in the closet to run some data analysis software that is too much trouble to convert to PPC. I even used an HP-87 in the mid-90s to take data because it was fast enough and the software was already written to control all the relevant hardware. I think it's still in use in my old lab.

[chrisl]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

The only possible solution would be to create a separate boot volume containing a legacy version of OS9 created strictly for the purpose of playing CM. Assuming OSX would even function properly under these circumstances, that seems like a lot of trouble to go through to play a game, even one as good as CM.

It's really no trouble at all. I've always had at least two OS's on my PB, and keep softwindows around so I can show people autocad drawings occasionally, and run MSProject. Believe me, autocad R14 runs slooow on a G3/300 when you render a 20 MB 3-D drawing, but run it does, and when I need it it's worth it.

Rebooting into another OS is pretty easy, straightforward, and fast. Hordes of PC and Linux users do it all the time, and a few mac users, like me, too. There's no reason that any future version would so much as hiccup when doing something like this on any machine that currently runs OS9. Any future version will have to be able to mount multiple volumes that are HFS+, pretty much with utter disregard for their contents. It's just a bunch of bits that it will never even read (it will read the directory information, but unless you start poking about on purpose, the OS isn't going to care that you have a bunch of bits that look like 9.2.2. Really.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Boy, I sure am hearing a lot of the Mac user inferiority complex ringing out loud and clear in this. Hey guys, whatever happens is still months in the future. What's all the hand-wringing about? Is this a tempest in a teapot or what?

This of course is nothing but a deliberately inflammatory remark. I suppose its "deeper meaning" must be that you aren't a Mac owner and would be just as happy if nobody else was.</font>

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by chrisl:

An informative post, thank you. I'm not a regular on these boards, but I was under the impression that the "next" CM would be OSX compatible.

I am aware of the "Mac heritage" of CM, and the developer's commitment to the Mac.

However, I am not so confident that many Mac CM players won't find themselves locked out. A graphics-intensive game of this kind begs current hardware, and that will be out of the question within a few months. Also perhaps as early as next January I would not be surprised to find a revision of OSX that did not allow booting into OS9. Creating a separate boot volume for legacy OS9 might be possible, but again we don't know.

I intend on following Apple's upgrade path for OSX, which is more important to me than playing CM, given that I use my computers for far more than playing games. In fact, CM is the only game I play.

[karch]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

...........and ask you to simply re-read my posts. I have never said that CM will not run under 10.2.

I never said you did. But that isn't the point I've been trying to correct.

In fact, quite the contrary. I am advising you as Apple has advised us, that (1) future Mac hardware will not be capable of booting OS9

Correct. We've all seen the quotes on the rumor sites from Steve Jobs. Agreed.

, and (2) some future version of OSX beyond 10.2 will not allow booting into OS9.

Wrong. Unless they force all computers to upgrade their ROMs to specifically not allow booting into OS9, it can't be done. Explain how you think it can. This is what all my posts revolve around.

Please understand that it is absolutely not necessary for Apple to patch a ROM to make booting into OS9 impossible with a normal installation of OSX. When (and not "if") OS9 is relegated to a role of Classic environment only, you can expect that OSX will not be able to use previous older (bootable) versions of OS9 for that purpose.

Again, short of updating ROMs, it is impossible for Apple to stop you from booting into OS9.1 or whatever. Impossible.

The only OS9 version you can use in classic is 9.2.1 or newer, so you can't use 9.0 or 9.1 as your Classic install. But that is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. Apple can't stop you from installing another version of OS9 on the same partition as your 10.2 or later system and booting from it. It just can't be done without changing the hardware (ROMs again) to not allow OS9 to boot. It's not gonna happen.

The only possible solution would be to create a separate boot volume containing a legacy version of OS9 created strictly for the purpose of playing CM. Assuming OSX would even function properly under these circumstances, that seems like a lot of trouble to go through to play a game, even one as good as CM.

Not true. Just install OS9 on any partition or bootable drive and boot into 9 to play CM. We aren't trying to get 8.6 running as Classic mode in X, just boot into 8.6 to play CM and leave 9.2.1 or whatever to be Classic.

If you think having a dual boot system is too much of a pain to play a game, then you are way out of touch. MANY people have dual boot systems to play games. People with NT4 and Win98/ME boxes. NT for work, 98 for play. Heck some players keep a DOS partition and boot into it for some old games that only run in DOS.

Yes it totally blows, but we're not the first people to deal with this. I urge you to think about how little it would bother you to reboot into 9 to play a couple hours of CM, and then the 3-5 minutes to reboot back into X once you are done. heck, write me, I'll play with you. I'm really not a jerk. And if you want to play IP, we'll both have the same "reboot into 9" pause. I do it now, and it's not as bad as you think.

[karch]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:........Also perhaps as early as next January I would not be surprised to find a revision of OSX that did not allow booting into OS9. Creating a separate boot volume for legacy OS9 might be possible, but again we don't know.

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I think you are wrong and can't imagine how one operating system could possibly stop another from booting. I just don't think it can be done. What difference would there be to having 8.6 and 9.0 and 9.1 and 9.2.1 and X all on the same partition, let alone computer and choosing from them?

1) if the startup disc program in X didn't allow choosing 9 installs

2)?

even if that were the case (which I doubt) you could boot from a 9.0 CD, run the startup disc program from the CD, then reboot. But I doubt that would happen. Please explain what you think Apple might do to stop a user from booting into an old version of 8.6 to run Combat Mission in?

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by chrisl:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

The only possible solution would be to create a separate boot volume containing a legacy version of OS9 created strictly for the purpose of playing CM. Assuming OSX would even function properly under these circumstances, that seems like a lot of trouble to go through to play a game, even one as good as CM.

It's really no trouble at all. I've always had at least two OS's on my PB, and keep softwindows around so I can show people autocad drawings occasionally, and run MSProject. Believe me, autocad R14 runs slooow on a G3/300 when you render a 20 MB 3-D drawing, but run it does, and when I need it it's worth it.

</font>

[karch]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:...........It might be possible, as I've said.

I'm sorry, but I just reread your posts. You've been saying that it wouldn't be possible. If you meant otherwise, you weren't clear.

How will future version of OSX respond to multiple Classic environments on different volumes?

9.0 isn't classic, 8.6 isn't classic. Right now, only 9.2.x is Classic. All the others are just other operating systems sitting on the drive. My guess is Apple doesn't have the time or reason to bother figuring out how to make old computers stop booting old operating systems. they haven't done it yet, why would they start now.

[chrisl]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

Also perhaps as early as next January I would not be surprised to find a revision of OSX that did not allow booting into OS9. Creating a separate boot volume for legacy OS9 might be possible, but again we don't know.

I intend on following Apple's upgrade path for OSX, which is more important to me than playing CM, given that I use my computers for far more than playing games. In fact, CM is the only game I play.

Any machine that can currently boot into OS9 will always be able to boot into OS9 (until you crush it with your car or something). Really. It's maybe possible that Apple could force ROM updates that refuse to boot into 9, but extremely unlikely and a bad business move. They are already likely to lose significant hardware sales in the DTP industry if they stop supporting boot into 9 on new hardware. If they were to force ROM upgrades that prohibited boot into 9, they would lose software sales, too. Given that sales of new software versions are a way that they maintain cash flow, this is a good way to cut into their operating funds.

Creating a separate boot volume for legacy OS9 is possible on any current machine, and will be supported by any future version of OSX. Volumes are volumes, and Unix had partitions before Macs were a twinkle in Steve Jobs' eye. There are numerous reasons why people maintain multiple partitions in all sorts of operating systems, Apple isn't going to stop you from doing that. There is software available now that will let you repartition a drive without losing data. If you know what you're doing you can even do it by hand with crude command line utilities (don't try this at home).

Dropping boot into 9 isn't even officially announced at Apple yet, as far as I can tell. The only thing I've been able to find so far is an article at e-week that didn't even have official statements. It did point to a lot of reasons why it can hurt apple hardware sales. Forcing existing users to lose the boot into 9 capability on existing machine is a great way to lose sales. There's a reason they're keeping 9 around, and if you let them keep it you still get their $130 for OS 10.3.

Anyway, why worry about that, when you can worry about Apple dropping motorola processors some time around 2005. At that point none of your executables will run except in emulation mode. I betcha CMBO in emulation on an Intel based mac in 2006 will look better and run faster than it does on my Wallstreet.

btw-- always staying with the latest and greatest software is a great way to be a beta tester, but not great for getting work done. It's usually better to stay a few steps behind and make jumps up to the next step that's been verified stable by the early adopters.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

You must admit, the caveat "will not run on Mac hardware manufactured after 2002" is not good.

Granted that's a problem for anyone who absolutely must have whatever is the latest equipment Apple is producing, and can only have one computer. And if you are one of those you do have my sincerest sympathiies.

But for most Mac owners that will not be the case. How often does the average Mac owner upgrade his computer? I don't know how close I am to the average, but for me it seems to run about every 3.5 years. I've had my current box (a 733) for a year, so I expect to get at least a couple more years use out of it before having to upgrade the entire system again. In the meanwhile, if it proves that my GF 2 MX isn't up to handling the graphics load with 32MB VRAM, then I can go to the GF 4600 Ti with 128.

It just ain't time to get into a panic.

Michael

[Jarmo]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

Yeah, but about 5 years ago (when CM's developement started), Apple was deeply committed to RAVE for 3D and OSX was nowhere in sight. If CMBB had been a "start from scratch", it would have no doubt been developed for OpenGL and Carbonized. But that's not the case. CMBB was always going to be using CMBO engine.

To expect a games developer to have realized in -97, that 2003 vintage Macs wouldnt be able to boot in OS9 anymore, is expecting quite a lot..

Lots of games publishers got screwed by Apples 180 degree turn, but since the developement cycle of most games (and even most programs in general) is shorter than CM's, most publishers are already over the problem.

Besides, according to Apple there's no problem! Classic apps run in classic environment. Hardly BTS's fault that Apple has done half assed job with classic.

It's basically BTS's perfectionism that's been delaying the progress. Having followed the forum for quite a while, I believe the original timetable would have had CMBO and CMBB done in about 3 years, not in 6. It's hard/wrong to be unhappy when a developer takes his time to perfect the program. Not usual problem in the gaming world...

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Ignatious J. Fathead:

However, I am not so confident that many Mac CM players won't find themselves locked out. A graphics-intensive game of this kind begs current hardware, and that will be out of the question within a few months.

[snip]

In fact, CM is the only game I play.

In that case I can not understand why you want to pass on CMBB.

Regarding the hardware, at one of the previews at my place, CMBB ran very well on a Lime iMac (these are what now? 2-3 years old), and it is just breezy on my 2-3 year old G4/400 (first AGP model). The game does not 'beg' current hardware, on the contrary, it is designed to run well on systems that you can pick up on Ebay for a fiver. Well, almost...

[Michael Emrys]

Good analysis, Jarmo.

The following is not a serious suggestion, since I do not know what the conditions are that would necessarily precede its fulfillment, but just a fleeting thought. And that is that at times I have wished that BTS could find a second (and even possibly a third) programmer who was sufficiently compatible to take over some of the coding tasks from Charles. I.e., while Charles is working on new versions of the game, this second person could be writing patches and updates for existing games and possibly doing some of the testing and debugging of the new code. Perhaps such a scheme is not feasible with the existing structure of the organisation or with Charles methods. I don't know, I just dream dreams...

Michael

[Jarmo]

I wonder if the solution (dont remember who's idea it was) of making a CM version stripped of "new Rave" features would be feasible. You'd probably lose all kinds of eye candy, but it should then run accelerated under classic...

I'm not a programmer, so I don't know if it'd be as easy as removing features, or if full reworking would be required.