Forced MacOS X boot = no CMBB?!?

[karsten]

All kinds of ways. I'll list some again. Still, this is all beside the point. OS 9 is dead. Apple has said so. The Steve has spoken. If it's dead for developers, it's been dead to Apple for even longer. If it's dead to them, it's dead to users.

Steve has also shown, very publicly, that he is more than capable of employing Microsoft tactics (e.g. iTools & upgrade pricing) and shows no signs of stopping.

That being said, here's a list of possibilities (again):

- Hidden in a Firmware update

- Modify the boot sectors

- Modify HFS+

- Disable the 'C' boot key for OS 9

- Remove the ability to boot into OS 9 from Open Firmware

- Modify the PRAM

- Remove the ability to select OS 9 as a boot disk

- Update OS 9 via Software Update to remove boot capability

- Have OS X 10.2 boot sequence always re-disable OS 9 boot capability

- Update OS 9 to force booting only within OS X

- Disable Software Update for OS 9 (part of the last update, of course)

Even more effective:

- End all support for OS 9 based macs

- Implement $139/call for any OS 9 support, 2nd call gets free copy of OS X

- Release all new macs that can only boot into OS X

- Make sure all your major developers drop support for OS 9

- Change the charges on iTools/.Mac from $99 to $49, but free for OS X users - also, only provide limited abilities in .Mac for OS 9

- All new Apple software is OS X only

- Double (or more) Apple developer costs for developers that still release products for and/or support OS 9

- Pass charges on to developers for all calls made to Apple regarding their OS 9 products

I'll say it again too: Even if none of these come to pass, CMBO requires modifying OS 9 and then rebooting, in OS 9, just to play the game. Followed by a re-install and re-boot of the modified files if you want to use Classic. It's a major pain in the ass.

How about you give me the official word from Battlefront regarding CMBB and 10.2?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by karsten:

How about you give me the official word from Battlefront regarding CMBB and 10.2?

How about we let BTS complete and release CMBB first and then we can bombard them with all sorts of questions on this account?

Michael

[karsten]

sounds like a plan to me

[Michael Emrys]

Whew! I hope we can all agree to that!

Michael

[karch]

Originally posted by karsten:

All kinds of ways. I'll list some again. Still, this is all beside the point. OS 9 is dead. Apple has said so. The Steve has spoken. If it's dead for developers, it's been dead to Apple for even longer. If it's dead to them, it's dead to users.

Except that they said it isn't. And there isn't anything Apple is going to do to stop that. You can bank on it. Or take my bet.

- Hidden in a Firmware update

Impossible and rediculous. They would have to make an update to every different computer with different ROMS.

- Modify the boot sectors

tell me what this would do

- Modify HFS+

I think that is rediculous and don't see what it has to do with OS9 booting. Please explain

- Disable the 'C' boot key for OS 9

That's in your ROMS, and I say they can't change those because YOU need to run the updater and they need different ones for every different computer.

- Remove the ability to boot into OS 9 from Open Firmware

Those are your ROMS. See point number 1

- Modify the PRAM

To do what? Just reset the PRAM and restart.

- Remove the ability to select OS 9 as a boot disk

OK, I could see that they could do this from inside X. Except that you would see copies of startup disk app from X 10.1 around the net so you could still boot back into 9. So, they could make that more of a pain, but not stop it.

- Update OS 9 via Software Update to remove boot capability

Fine. Then reinstall OS9 from your OS9 CD and don't run that software update again.

- Have OS X 10.2 boot sequence always re-disable OS 9 boot capability

Fine, I'll just keep my OS9 system on an external drive that's not connected on boot. But I think you're crazy to think they would bother wasting time to do something like that.

- Update OS 9 to force booting only within OS X

Fine. Then reinstall OS9 from your OS9 CD and don't run that software update again.

- Disable Software Update for OS 9 (part of the last update, of course)

That would have no impact on a currently running OS9 to keep booting OS9. And playing CM

- End all support for OS 9 based macs

Has no impact on playing CM on an old computer running OS9. I've never called Apple for support on anything, and don't know anyone who has.

- Implement $139/call for any OS 9 support, 2nd call gets free copy of OS X

Same as above. Won't stop anything other than people calling in. If they are already playing CM, this won't stop them

- Release all new macs that can only boot into OS X

That has nothing to do with current computers booting into OS9 and playing CM. Our current debate. I agree that at some point, probably next year, new Macs will not be able to boot into 9. But all previous ones will, I say forever, even after installing X 10.2 or greater.

- Make sure all your major developers drop support for OS 9

Any programmers old games/programs that currently run in 9, will continue to run in 9 even if they don't develop the program any further in 9. What does this point have to do with your current computer booting into 9 and running a legacy app?

- Change the charges on iTools/.Mac from $99 to $49, but free for OS X users - also, only provide limited abilities in .Mac for OS 9

How will this keep a current computer from booting back into OS9 to play an old game?

- All new Apple software is OS X only

That would have no impact on a currently running OS9 to keep booting OS9. And playing CM

- Double (or more) Apple developer costs for developers that still release products for and/or support OS 9

That would have no impact on a currently running OS9 to keep booting OS9. And playing CM

- Pass charges on to developers for all calls made to Apple regarding their OS 9 products

That would have no impact on a currently running OS9 to keep booting OS9. And playing CM

Even if none of these come to pass, CMBO requires modifying OS 9 and then rebooting, in OS 9, just to play the game. Followed by a re-install and re-boot of the modified files if you want to use Classic. It's a major pain in the ass.

Wrong. I will have Classic OS9 one the same partition as OSX, I will have a seperate partition for my gaming OS9, which will not be modified in any way. I will use the Startup Disk program to tell my computer to boot into OS9 when I want to play Combat mission. When I'm done, I will reboot holding down command X and reboot in to OSX. You will not have to change your copy of OS9 to run Combat mission. All you have to do is tell your computer ro reboot into 9 and reboot and play. We'll see in a few weeks. If I'm wrong about any of this,now or in the future, I'll come back and post the biggest apology thread you guys have ever seen. I will.

I just don't see why Apple would bother wasting the time just to piss people off. New programs won't be developed for OS9 from now on, hardware won't either. Why not just let it die a slow quiet death instead of spending tens of thousands of development hours on old computers and old operating systems? Steve wants to make Apple money and not waste it. I don't see how spending this money will either save Apple money or make them money.

If you bought and are using X, great they are getting their money. All the programs you buy will be for OSX, so Apple and the other developers will stay happy. What good does stopping booting from OS9 really do?

[karsten]

I just don't see why Apple would bother wasting the time just to piss people off.

Neither do I. But Jobs has a very long history of doing just that. He's quite good at it.

Impossible and rediculous. They would have to make an update to every different computer with different ROMS.

Um. They've done this a ton of times.

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- Modify the boot sectors

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tell me what this would do

Change their location so you just get a flashing question mark when booting into OS 9.

That's in your ROMS, and I say they can't change those because YOU need to run the updater and they need different ones for every different computer.

Don't you recall all of the previous firmware updates that had hidden items in them that disabled a number of different items? Old history - but it's still been done.

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- Modify HFS+

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I think that is rediculous and don't see what it has to do with OS9 booting. Please explain

Change the structure so only Classic can recognize it and OS 9 can't.

Anyway, my whole point is if Apple wants to make life difficult, it can and will.

It already has with OS X - re: RAVE. 1.7 was current, they only support 1.6.

Fact is, I'm not going to isolate my Mac from the rest of the world just to play a game. I'll jump through a few hoops, but that's it.

We all know that OS 9 is going away in the user base. Maybe not as fast as Apple & Microsoft want it to, but it is happening and Apple is under great pressure to move it along.

Frankly, I feel for BTS. But only slightly. It's the close minded thinking and blind following of what Apple says that gets developers and users caught in all these messes. That's why it's called Steve's Reality Distortion Field.

The same partially applies to the current situation. OS 9 is obsolete, OS X is the future of the MacOS. The rest of it is all part of Steve's big game.

Still, it remains to be seen how much more of a pain it will be to run CMBB in 10.2 - BTS knows I'm sure. I wish they would tell us.

[gibsonm]

Does this really need to go on for so long?

If you are so worried then the day after you buy CMBB just isolate your current box and play both games until a solution is posted (i.e CM 2).

No one is forcing you to buy new gear or upgrade your OS and if you want to then do it. Just keep your current machine as your CMBO / CMBB box until both games are re-written to use the new engine?

I'm concerned that my 500MHZ Ti PB won't run CMBB at its best resolution but I'm not bleating (in public anyway) about how I can't run a cinema display at millions of colours.

All we seem to be doing at present is going around in circles about "what might be" and showing all the Windoze people out there that you are paranoid.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Does this really need to go on for so long?

If you are so worried then the day after you buy CMBB just isolate your current box and play both games until a solution is posted (i.e CM 2).

No one is forcing you to buy new gear or upgrade your OS and if you want to then do it. Just keep your current machine as your CMBO / CMBB box until both games are re-written to use the new engine?

I'm concerned that my 500MHZ Ti PB won't run CMBB at its best resolution but I'm not bleating (in public anyway) about how I can't run a cinema display at millions of colours.

All we seem to be doing at present is going around in circles about "what might be" and showing all the Windoze people out there that you are paranoid.

Paranoid? I'm sorry, that's just silly.

I'd like any software developer of products I buy to know that I expect them to support the computer platform I use. How are they going to know I care if I say nothing?

Yes, I believe in complaining when complaining is justified.

[karch]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Does this really need to go on for so long?

This will be my last post. It is my feeling that Karsten and Mr Fathead are spreading disinformation that unwary Mac CM players may read and actually believe is true. I agree that they come off as paranoid. All I'm arguing is that any current Mac user has nothing to worry about moving forward with OSX and keeping running OS9 for playing CM on any current computer they have.

That's all from me until 10.2 comes out. Then I'll either be vindicated, or come back with an apology.

[karsten]

Sheesh!

All I wanted was a simple answer from BTS.

I didn't write the OS 9 no-boot articles, I don't make Apple policy, etc etc.

As far as I can tell, we still don't have an answer from BTS...

[sturner]

Hey Karsten,

Whichever way the Apple falls, if you buy a new Mac after the switch date, that is it, as you know.

As for BTS and CMBO and CMBB, you can follow my lead if you want. If an when I purchase a new Mac, and it won't let me boot into OS 9, then that's the day CMBO and CMBB had better support OpenGL. If they don't I will simply stop playing.

I won't like it much, but if they won't support the platform I use, so be it. I will give my money to the company that makes a product I can use.

I always vote with my pocket book. I have done it professionally, eschewing Deneba Canvas, because they didn't add the functionallity they promised in thier marketing, for Adobe Illustrator. I may never find a game like CMBO or CMBB again, but that's life.

[MouseBert]

There seems to be an awful lot of panic on what Apple Inc. might do with MacOS 9 booting. If there is an underhanded ROM upgrade that allows only 9.0 running under X, then I would bet that the likes of Ryan Remple would find away to modify the OpenFirmware, which is FORTH, to bypass that, like he did with MacOS X and my old PowerWave PPC from PowerComputing.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by MouseBert:

There seems to be an awful lot of panic on what Apple Inc. might do with MacOS 9 booting. If there is an underhanded ROM upgrade that allows only 9.0 running under X, then I would bet that the likes of Ryan Remple would find away to modify the OpenFirmware, which is FORTH, to bypass that, like he did with MacOS X and my old PowerWave PPC from PowerComputing.

The use of words like "panic" and "paranoia" in this context really have me mystified. Some of us are just willing to talk reality here, and that seems to be too much for others. To summarize the points I've made to date, against those who would misrepresent them:

1. Eventually, new Mac hardware will not boot OS9. Read the eWeek artcle that started this discussion. Don't believe it? Okay, fine -- but Apple has not denied it officially, thought supposedly Steve Jobs has, unofficially.

Still unconvinced? When was the last time you bought a Mac that would boot into an OS earlier then the one that was pre-installed on the hard drive? To date, Apple's been keeping OS9 alive, in terms of hardware booting, longer than any other obsolete OS in Mac history, as nearly as I can tell. People who think this will go on forever just don't know how Apple works, or are in denial.

2. We should not be expected to avoid upgrading Mac hardware or the OS to maintain compatibility with the very, very small number of applications which won't run in OSX or Classic. CM just happens to be one of those. Too bad, so sad.

3. A future version of OSX (not 10.2) will not include a bootable version of OS9. What was OS9 will be integrated more tightly into OSX and will serve only as the Classic Environment. Everyone who follows Apple closely know that they must take this step eventually. They way it works now, with dual OSs, is ugly and confusing. This is just a transition period.

What this means, in all probability, is that any software which requires booting into OS9 9 (as opposed to working in the Classic Environment) will simply not run, unless you have hardware which will boot OS9, and also maintain a separate OS9 boot volume. Current owners of CM for the Mac might actually choose to do this. Newcomers to the Mac will not -- by the end of this month, Macs won't even ship with a bootable OS9 CD.

4. Apple will not attempt to surreptitiously upgrade Mac ROMs on older hardware to prevent OS9 booting on these machines. Others have suggested this, but not I.

[Jagdratt]

Originally posted by karch:

That's all from me until 10.2 comes out. Then I'll either be vindicated, or come back with an apology.[/QB]

I have 10.2 running here on my machine right now - what is your question?

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by Jagdratt:

I have 10.2 running here on my machine right now - what is your question?

Since karch has stated an intention to not post to this thread any further, I will have to say, "no question." The 10.2 reference is a straw-man. OS 10.2 has never been relevant to this debate. If anyone has ever claimed that CM won't run after an install of 10.2, then I don't remember seeing it, let alone, saying it.

Curiously, karch and I agree with about 80% of our analysis of this situation, yet he continues to claim I am spreading "misinformation," though just what this "misinformation" is, I honestly cannot say. Presumably, neither can he.

Incidentally, if Apple does disable booting into OS9 with a future generation of Mac hardware, an event which both karch and I seem to agree is likely, then CM will be effectively unavailable to those Mac owners, which will include all newcomers to the Mac. This can only cause the Mac share of CM sales, which is already small, to decline even further.

Sorry if I can't paint a similey face on this scenario.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by karsten:

As far as I can tell, we still don't have an answer from BTS...

THEY ARE BUSY. That's why I posted to wait until after CMBB is out. Ask your question then and maybe you will get an answer. If they were to drop everything now to reassure you, they would have a thousand fans screaming at them to go back to working on the game.

So let's all just be cool and hold our water, okay? This isn't a matter that needs to be settled in the next few weeks. So just give it a rest until it is actually time to take the matter up.

Michael

[ August 12, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[karsten]

Tempers! :mad:

That was the most recent plan I believe - waiting until both CMBB is out and Apple does their 'thing' with OS 9.

Doesn't hurt to ask them though. Busy or not.

All in all, it is a good discussion.

Let me pose this question: Is there anyone that know just what the problem objects are between RAVE 1.7 & 1.6?

Maybe there's a hack that could be tossed together for Classic.

[karsten]

Just a semi-related FYI:

- The iPod 1.2 updater won't run on anything less than 9.2.2

- iTunes 3 updater is OS X only.

[karsten]

Looks like anyone that purchases a new Mac or anyone that Purchases 10.2 as their first incarnation of OS X but only has OS 9 on a restore disk that came with their system is going to be a bit out of luck.

Official Apple word:

Apple is not including a Mac OS 9.2 install CD with Mac OS X 10.2 or new Macs, however, we bundle Classic on a backup Restore CD.

[Ignatious J. Fathead]

Originally posted by karsten:

Looks like anyone that purchases a new Mac or anyone that Purchases 10.2 as their first incarnation of OS X but only has OS 9 on a restore disk that came with their system is going to be a bit out of luck.

Official Apple word:

Apple is not including a Mac OS 9.2 install CD with Mac OS X 10.2 or new Macs, however, we bundle Classic on a backup Restore CD.

How dare you spread such misinformation!

[karch]

Here is the misinformation posted by you too. Everything following is quoted from this thread and is either not true or such a gross exaggeration as to not be taken seriously. No one should believe any of the following statements.

----------------------------------

Karsten posted August 02, 2002 06:47 PM

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Since Apple is killing the ability to boot into MacOS 9 and only allowing items to run in Classic mode, what's the new story on CMBB? .........

Looks like the only way to play CMBB now is to reformat your hard drive to just MacOS 9 - or just skip CMBB altogether.

To me, neither of those are acceptable.

Karsten posted August 03, 2002 05:04 AM

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Also, there are two parts to the OS 9 no-boot stuff:

- New macs (HW)

- Existing macs (SW)

The whole point is to disallow booting directly in to OS 9 no matter what machine you have OS X installed on. Support for OS 9 would be through Classic only.

That means partition or not, no direct boot into OS 9.

Karsten posted August 03, 2002 11:38 PM

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No, not quite. Apple could easily disable the ability to boot into OS9 on current Macs buy (1) removing this option from the Startup Disk control panel in future revisions of OSX and/or (2) updating the Classic environment for OSX to make it unbootable.

Within the next year or so, I believe they will do both………

karsten posted August 04, 2002 11:57 PM

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If 1.7 isn't in 10.2 and we won't be able to boot into OS 9, does that mean that we'll be stuck doing some kind of crazy shift/spacebar boot into classic to disable RAVE and then have to run CMBB in a crappy emulation mode?

Ignatious J. Fathead posted August 05, 2002 02:53 AM

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(2) some future version of OSX beyond 10.2 will not allow booting into OS9. When this will occur, we don't know for certain, but my educated guess is, quite soon.

Please understand that it is absolutely not necessary for Apple to patch a ROM to make booting into OS9 impossible with a normal installation of OSX. When (and not "if") OS9 is relegated to a role of Classic environment only, you can expect that OSX will not be able to use previous older (bootable) versions of OS9 for that purpose.

The only possible solution would be to create a separate boot volume containing a legacy version of OS9 created strictly for the purpose of playing CM. Assuming OSX would even function properly under these circumstances, that seems like a lot of trouble to go through to play a game, even one as good as CM.

Ignatious J. Fathead posted August 05, 2002 12:18 PM

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I said Apple could disable booting into OS9 and, within a year, probably would…….

That being said, will it always be possible to boot current Macs into OS9.2 as it exists today? Yes, certainly, if you want to keep it on a separate volume that's unmounted during use of OSX. This is mere speculation of course, but OSX may be unhappy with multiple OS9s available as Classic Environments. …………..

karsten posted August 06, 2002 11:52 PM

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As far as multiple boots:

- Apple can easily disable Open Firmware's abilty to boot into an OS 9 volume.

- They can also disable the 'C' boot into an OS 9 CD Volume.

- They can disable the Startup Volume selection on any computer that has OS X 10.2 installed on it.

- The can update firmware to disallow booting of an OS 9 volume.

They could even go as far as auto-updating, via the software update or other hidden feature, your copy of OS 9 to prevent it from being a bootable OS

[chrisl]

The thread that refused to die...

Pretty soon it will develop a life of its own, like the cesspool.

Anyway, as a long time mac (since the 128) and CM (since the beta demo) user, I'm not particularly worried about being about being able to run CMBB. I expect to upgrade some time in the next year, and I also expect to be able to find a pretty nice Mac laptop that will boot into OS9 and run CMBB with hardware rendered graphics. It may be that I'll have to buy a model that's about to be discontinued, but I will very surprised if Apple can come up with an effective way to keep me from booting into 9 on a machine that can do it when I buy it. Additionally, the PR disaster of disabling boot into 9 for people with legacy hardware far outweighs any advantage Apple might get from doing so.

I also think it likely that BTS will address running CMBB in Classic sometime after release, but given the schedule that they are on, and the size of the company, it's unreasonable to expect them to address it sooner. They could make a statement now, but Charles probably hasn't had enough time to dig through OSX enough to commit to a particular way to address it, and historically BTS seems to avoid making statements they can't back up. And when they do make statements they're very good about coming through. They're that way about release dates, and about features that will (or won't) appear in the game. They've produced a high quality, reasonably-priced game, and have customer service way beyond what you get from nearly anyone else. If they haven't come out and made a statement that would satisfy some people in this thread it's probably because they haven't had time to sort out what they will actually be able to implement.

Now it's back into the cesspool for me...

[Ben Galanti]

Originally posted by karsten:

Looks like anyone that purchases a new Mac or anyone that Purchases 10.2 as their first incarnation of OS X but only has OS 9 on a restore disk that came with their system is going to be a bit out of luck.

Official Apple word:

Apple is not including a Mac OS 9.2 install CD with Mac OS X 10.2 or new Macs, however, we bundle Classic on a backup Restore CD.

You can still boot into OS 9 with the new machines, using the Classic folder, or a copy of it. So CMBB will be totally playable on these machines.

Ben

[karsten]

Cool - so the new machines let you choose the Classic folder as a bootable System Folder for OS 9.2.2?

Are you on a developer version of 10.2 or the release version?

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by chrisl:

The thread that refused to die...

Pretty soon it will develop a life of its own, like the cesspool.

Anyway, as a long time mac (since the 128) and CM (since the beta demo) user.

As an ex Lisa user, I can say "get some time up"