Carl Deppen Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 What's up with these T-34 M41s in Kalinin Raid? I just played as Russian and the T-34's are getting smoked by the Panzer IIIs and IVs, head to head, close up and at distance, 600+ meters. The T-34's are being penetrated through the frontal armor by the German tanks, not just scarred off or hit by the German towed guns. In 1941, according to what I have read about the war, the T-34s were not vulnerable to the German tank guns, except for a lucky hit or two. Now, I know the optics and hit ratings are better for the Germans, but still it is about an even fight or worse for the T-34s against the German tanks. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busboy Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 Suggestion...post a spoiler warning. I didn't read it as I haven't played the scenario, though I did catch the fact that there is a particular German unit involved. (shouldn't hurt me too much when I play that scenario.) Other than that, I wish I could discuss it with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 Originally posted by Carl Deppen: In 1941, according to what I have read about the war, the T-34s were not vulnerable to the German tank guns, except for a lucky hit or two. Now, I know the optics and hit ratings are better for the Germans, but still it is about an even fight or worse for the T-34s against the German tanks. Any thoughts?And yet here http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_3.html [ October 07, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Deppen Posted October 8, 2002 Author Share Posted October 8, 2002 Bastables, Yes, I've read through your linked site before and in it it states: "On 26 May 1942 the General der Schnellen Truppen beim Oberkommando des Heeres distributed the following "Instructions to units on the Eastern Front for Combating the Russian T-34 Tank with our Panzers:" "Combating the T-34 with the 5 cm KwK tank gun is possible only at short ranges from the flank or rear"....."the 5 cm KwK can only be expected to penetrate the flanks of the T34 at short range" This, however, is not what I was seeing in the Kalinin Raid scenario. Great link, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon L Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 From what I understand, the M41's turret was significantly weaker than later models'. You might want to go back and check whether the majority of your penetrations are occurring against the turret. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 Originally posted by Carl Deppen: Bastables, Yes, I've read through your linked site before and in it it states: "On 26 May 1942 the General der Schnellen Truppen beim Oberkommando des Heeres distributed the following "Instructions to units on the Eastern Front for Combating the Russian T-34 Tank with our Panzers:" "Combating the T-34 with the 5 cm KwK tank gun is possible only at short ranges from the flank or rear"....."the 5 cm KwK can only be expected to penetrate the flanks of the T34 at short range" This, however, is not what I was seeing in the Kalinin Raid scenario. Great link, by the way.Look lower there is a table detailing 10% of T34s lost to the 3,7cm PaK/KwK gun and over 50% lost to the long 5cm PaK/KwK guns. The only place the 3,7cm gun could kill the early T-34s is the front turret or more often in real life the turret ring. I'd also suggest buying Jentz PanzerTruppen Vol I and II, they contain a wealth of Panzer Regt reports and some surprising kill ratios in favour of the PIII with 5cm kurz and 5cm lang versus T34s from 41 onwards. Pz Regt 203 has knocked out 115 enemy tanks with the loss of 14 of their own Pz's Combating the T 34 with the 5cm KwK tank gun is possible only only at short ranges from the flanks or rear. Hits on the turret ring, even with high explosive shells or MG bullets, usually result in jamming the turret. In addition, armour piercing shells fired at close range that hit the gun mantle result in penatrations and breaking open the weld seams [ October 08, 2002, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Deppen Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 Ok Ok, I'm not saying that it was not possible for the 1941 German tanks to knock out a T-34, amazingly the same article states that 4.7% of T-34s in that time period were loss due to 20 mm rounds. So it is possible, but is it probable that face to face with the German tanks that the T-34s should repeatedly get punched out in duels in Kalinin Road? I say no, since all the history sources seem to indicate the extreme difficulty in killing the T-34s, except at close range and from the sides or rear. Not saying it couldn't happen, just saying it was way too easy in Kalinin Road. That means the modeling in the game is off, or the German tankers just had an incredible string of lucky hits, that is frontal penetrating hits, not just ones that jammed the turret rings. Anyone else out there playing the 1941 scenarios seeing the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousOxide Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Carl, I'm going to play it right now and hopefully report back to you tommorow on the outcome. I'll take note of where KO'd tanks were hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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