Tanaka Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Although I think this topic should be on the general forum… If I may I will “use” your words Grisha: “…the Polish Home Government in London definitely had a political reason for signalling the uprising when it did, because it had no tactical sense to it at all. In fact, the Polish Home Army had no intention of seeking Soviet assistance, nor did it actively seek it(the Soviets did all of that)…” Together with this quoted from Slapdragon’s post: "…I have familiarized myself with more closely with the Warsaw affair. I am convinced that the Warsaw action represents a reckless and terrible adventure, which is costing the population large sacrifices. ... In the situation that has arisen, the Soviet Command has come to the conclusion that it must dissociate itself from the Warsaw adventure as it cannot take any direct or indirect responsibility for the Warsaw action…" Says it all… No one gives anything; there is always an upper interest behind… on a last instance, for sure, the guys who got “$crewed” were the ones fighting in Warsaw. Russia wanted to politically control Poland… as much as the Americans wanted to economically control the post war Europe. As an European myself, it’s obviously I very much prefer to live under Uncle Sam boot then Uncle Joe’s one… but that doesn’t implies I like to live under anyone’s boot The fascist dictators in likes of Hitler; Stalin; Noriega; Mussolini; Tito; Metaxas and many others, seam to have there days numbered… So our “old” order view, E and W, will gradually go away and perhaps allows us a more fair view of the past. If I may, I will just leave here a small warning, just don’t let yourself be dragged into a new one (good & evil, black & white or whatever)… For sure, as the old one, would diminish the clear “view” of the facts and make the joy of many state budgets planers all over the world. To have a “clear” view doesn’t prevent us of siding with one of the teams… just makes sure we are always open minded, retain the “big” picture view and don’t turn ourselves into “blind” puppets. My 1/4 hour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Although I think this topic should be on the general forum… If I may I will “use” your words Grisha: “…the Polish Home Government in London definitely had a political reason for signalling the uprising when it did, because it had no tactical sense to it at all. In fact, the Polish Home Army had no intention of seeking Soviet assistance, nor did it actively seek it(the Soviets did all of that)…” Together with this quoted from Slapdragon’s post: "…I have familiarized myself with more closely with the Warsaw affair. I am convinced that the Warsaw action represents a reckless and terrible adventure, which is costing the population large sacrifices. ... In the situation that has arisen, the Soviet Command has come to the conclusion that it must dissociate itself from the Warsaw adventure as it cannot take any direct or indirect responsibility for the Warsaw action…" Says it all… No one gives anything; there is always an upper interest behind… on a last instance, for sure, the guys who got “$crewed” were the ones fighting in Warsaw. Russia wanted to politically control Poland… as much as the Americans wanted to economically control the post war Europe. As an European myself, it’s obviously I very much prefer to live under Uncle Sam boot then Uncle Joe’s one… but that doesn’t implies I like to live under anyone’s boot The fascist dictators in likes of Hitler; Stalin; Noriega; Mussolini; Tito; Metaxas and many others, seam to have there days numbered… So our “old” order view, E and W, will gradually go away and perhaps allows us a more fair view of the past. If I may, I will just leave here a small warning, just don’t let yourself be dragged into a new one (good & evil, black & white or whatever)… For sure, as the old one, would diminish the clear “view” of the facts and make the joy of many state budgets planers all over the world. To have a “clear” view doesn’t prevent us of siding with one of the teams… just makes sure we are always open minded, retain the “big” picture view and don’t turn ourselves into “blind” puppets. My 1/4 hour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Jeez, Alan Clark, why don't you tell me what you really think Obviously, this is an area rife with fanaticism - as Clark's invective clearly displays. Like most things in life, it's never quite white, never quite black. Just shades of grey. What people don't realize is that Polish resistance was comprised of many factions besides the AK. It's just that the AK had western backing - as the Lublin group had Soviet backing. The real people to suffer were those who fought in the uprising and died when it failed. The Warsaw uprising was a politically motivated ploy orchestrated by the AK that failed miserably due to outrageous assumptions and lines of logic. Somehow, the AK thought it could pull off an uprising preemptively, and thereby beat the Soviets to Warsaw, so to speak. If it had been pulled off, then maybe the result of such a situation would have justifiably resulted in condemnation of the Soviets, since they would've never accepted this chain of events. However, it was not only started preemptively, the uprising was premature. Apparently the AK - who controlled the who mess - screwed up on their intelligence, or simply had no clue of the stopping power of a major river and SS Panzer divisions against a very extended and understrength Soviet force. Still, Rokossovsky tried to seek communication with AK leaders in Warsaw, but was repeatedly ignored. Only when the uprising was in serious trouble did AK leaders seek Soviet assistance - by opening communication via London! Why on earth you would have such a bass ackward communication line when in the middle of a crucial battle can only point to a political agenda on the part of the AK. In fact, it brings into question the very intent of the AK wrt the uprising, and whether it was merely a means to an ends. Sort of an attempt to grab Warsaw under the Soviets' noses, but if it fails - Heck! - we can just blame the Soviets. So, did Stalin want Poland? Yes. He intended on turning eastern Europe into a buffer zone against future aggression from the west - Barbarossa had that deep an impression upon the Soviets - and Stalin. But, did the AK plan on using the uprising as a ploy to either, a)usurp control of Warsaw from the Soviets, or failing that, blame the Soviets for not helping(by making sure that little to no aid from Soviet forces would reach Polish insurgents)? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted February 13, 2002 Share Posted February 13, 2002 Jeez, Alan Clark, why don't you tell me what you really think Obviously, this is an area rife with fanaticism - as Clark's invective clearly displays. Like most things in life, it's never quite white, never quite black. Just shades of grey. What people don't realize is that Polish resistance was comprised of many factions besides the AK. It's just that the AK had western backing - as the Lublin group had Soviet backing. The real people to suffer were those who fought in the uprising and died when it failed. The Warsaw uprising was a politically motivated ploy orchestrated by the AK that failed miserably due to outrageous assumptions and lines of logic. Somehow, the AK thought it could pull off an uprising preemptively, and thereby beat the Soviets to Warsaw, so to speak. If it had been pulled off, then maybe the result of such a situation would have justifiably resulted in condemnation of the Soviets, since they would've never accepted this chain of events. However, it was not only started preemptively, the uprising was premature. Apparently the AK - who controlled the who mess - screwed up on their intelligence, or simply had no clue of the stopping power of a major river and SS Panzer divisions against a very extended and understrength Soviet force. Still, Rokossovsky tried to seek communication with AK leaders in Warsaw, but was repeatedly ignored. Only when the uprising was in serious trouble did AK leaders seek Soviet assistance - by opening communication via London! Why on earth you would have such a bass ackward communication line when in the middle of a crucial battle can only point to a political agenda on the part of the AK. In fact, it brings into question the very intent of the AK wrt the uprising, and whether it was merely a means to an ends. Sort of an attempt to grab Warsaw under the Soviets' noses, but if it fails - Heck! - we can just blame the Soviets. So, did Stalin want Poland? Yes. He intended on turning eastern Europe into a buffer zone against future aggression from the west - Barbarossa had that deep an impression upon the Soviets - and Stalin. But, did the AK plan on using the uprising as a ploy to either, a)usurp control of Warsaw from the Soviets, or failing that, blame the Soviets for not helping(by making sure that little to no aid from Soviet forces would reach Polish insurgents)? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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