Guest Offwhite Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Just fishing for opinions here... I've never been amongst real bocage terrain, so my impressions of it are all based on reading or photos. In a couple of maps I'm playing around with, I made numerous small fields (80-100m across) almost completely enclosed with bocage. I know the manual says fields were never completely enclosed, but I want to force the attacker to go through the fields, not skirt easily around. I almost never close the fields with the bocage corner tiles, but use woods instead. I've found scattered trees and brush to be too little of an impediment to vehicles, and also they don't block LOS. For that matter, neither do woods, but my solution is to make the corner tiles one level higher than the fields and bocage. It's not high enough to see over the bocage, but blocks LOS from one field to another quite well. The whole scheme has worked pretty well in testing - the AI loves to put MG42s in those corner woods tiles, and there is often (but not always) just enough room between the end of the bocage and the edge of the woods for a tank to squeeze by. If I want vehicles confined to the roads, I can always use the bocage corners. So what do those of you who are wiser than I, or who have been to Normandy, think of this arrangement? Is it completely unlike actual Norman bocage, and good only for my fantasy of what the stuff was like? Or is it a reasonable approximation of the hedgerows? Any feedback/suggestions will be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 I was in Normandy last week, (oh how I miss it..) Much of the bocage in Normandy has been trimmed down considerably, at least in the areas that I traveled. I believe that any piece of land that uses hedgerows as a border/ windbreak will definitely have an opening. Otherwise, how would they tend the land? Also, the shapes of these plots of land may have straight lines, but never seem to be perfect squares or rectangles. There should be some dirt roads giving access through the areas. Go to www.terraserver.com , and you will be able to view satellite maps of Normandy. Enter Villers-Bocage in the search, and you will be able to see a good "floor plan" for your hedgerows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted November 22, 2000 Share Posted November 22, 2000 Thanks Cap'n! Appreciate the first hand comments. This is a good post, Offwhite. I've seen photos of bocage but never been there. Maybe one day, God willing, before I "shake of this mortal coil!" ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester Scenario Design Team Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Boy Offwhite, your map sounds sadistic . There has to be at least one opening otherwise the land would never be tended. One opening will keep vehicles on the road since there will be no need to enter that plot of land if there is only one way in and one way out. ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Offwhite Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 Thanks for the replies. Here are a couple of (attempted) screenshots to better show what I'm doing: and The highlighted Sherman snuck through between the wire and the bocage just to the right of foreground center. I see the point you guys are making about having openings, but the image in my head is that of narrow paths/gaps to allow the farmer and his cows through - not the 20-meter-wide holes that are created by CM tiles. Obviously the infantry have no trouble getting through the woods at the intersections (unless the AI puts wire there!), but I don't want there to be any guarantee that a tank can drive into any old field he pleases (until July '44 that is). Anyway, I'll probably make this map available once it's done, but it's got a ways to go yet. [This message has been edited by Offwhite (edited 11-23-2000).] [This message has been edited by Offwhite (edited 11-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 23, 2000 Share Posted November 23, 2000 The fields seem a bit too geometrically regular. I've never been to Normandy, but Burgundian farmers hedge in their fields as well, albeit not with bocage. Anyway, the fields are much less regular than you've laid them out - theres a much greater variety of shapes, and they've often got bumps and protruberances. Cheers. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Yeide Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 How relevant is the issue anyway? Until the Cullins device came into wide use in July, tanks simply didn't enter a lot of hedgerowed fields. When they did, it was after engineers created a hole or a dozer tank did the same. Tankers note that either technique gave German AT gunners something to pre-aim at. As for German armor in the hedgerows, it generally is mentioned in the context of prepared positions (access prearranged) or in counterattacks along roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Have you ever played Close Combat 5: Invasion Normandy? Every of the maps have lots of bocage. I think they look very real. Check it out! ------------------ War is in my heart Death is by my side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 I was in Normandy this summer, and I looked carefully at the bocage. Despite being cut back as mentioned above, it is still fairly prominent in some of the lesser-travelled areas. Many of the fields were arranged geometrically, although there was some variation where terrain or buildings interfered. Often the field would have bocage on three sides and a stone wall or fence of some sort (with gate) on the fourth. The one issue I have with bocage modelling in CM is that in Normandy the roads between hedgerows tended to be sunken from 1-3m (and sometimes as much as 5-6m, although this was fairly uncommon) below the level of the field and the base of the hedgerow. This allowed concealed movement through the roads, and thus forces could be shifted between fields without observation. It would be nice to see this show up in the scenarios set in Normandy (I haven't noticed it in any I've played so far, but I've only had the game for a month or so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 One thing about medieval constructions and layouts, especially roads, is that they are never geometric. They may be near, but all roads tend to follow a level contour rather than a straight line. This is because it was easier to turn a wagon than pull it uphill in the mud. Also, regarding sunken lanes, there is a very good one in the Carentan Operation. Great example to build off of. WWB ------------------ Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salatamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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