Holien Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I have just finished playing a great game with Seany B where it ended up being a draw. In "reality" I accept that the result was a fair one. But looking at the end position the "game" seems to have swung on a flag which was shown as contested even though I had three Arty Spotters in the building and Sean had no crediable threat within 100 Mtrs of it. Sean had never put any units near the Flag and I had never lost control of it. I can only think that because I moved some Inf away from the flag to attack another some distance away the computer decided it was vacant. Not counting my Arty as fighting men. This situation arose because I thought it was better to contest the other flags and use my remaining Infantry to hunt down a platoon that was in retreat. My questions are:- Is it better to kill straggling Inf / Arty observers / HQ units, or keep control of flags. Which will get you more points? What is the miniumum to keep control of a flag? Do you get full points for killing a Arty FO which has called in all his rounds? I am going to check the rule book tonight to see what it has to say. Just thought I would open this one to any comments. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by Holien: But looking at the end position the "game" seems to have swung on a flag which was shown as contested even though I had three Arty Spotters in the building and Sean had no crediable threat within 100 Mtrs of it. I don't think FOs or crews can occupy flags. You need more troops that can defend the objective than the enemy has attacking it for the flag to be awarded to you. Don't know exactly how the formula works of course. I can't answer your questions because the points calculations are not known. IMO bean counting will not get you anywhere, as it may distract you from what is really important, i.e. forming a plan based on the mission, the terrain, your troops and the enemy, and executing it as best as you can, while catering for the unexpected. Sometimes the flags will be a good place to defend, other times you will want to defend in front of them. Also, do not assume that an experienced player will setup his troops at the flags, you might be in for a surprise... Use the flags as general guides. At the end of the day, if you destroy the enemy, all the flags are yours. You might want to read some of the defence/attack doctrine threads on the board to get a better feel for tactics. Regards. ------------------ My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 At the beginning of the game, your objective is to destroy the enemy for little loss. Once the enemy is destroyed, there's little to stop you from strolling over to the objectives. Exception, of course, being if the other guy might be getting reinforcements, in which case you have to balance things out a bit. As a rule of thumb, if I recall, a small flag is worth 100 points, a large one is 300. So take the points values of destroyed units vs the values of units you will lose vs value of the flag.. NTM ------------------ The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Originally posted by coralsaw: I don't think FOs or crews can occupy flags.The rule is that only those that have close range firepower can occupy flags. - Arty spotters, sharpshooters and on map mortars (exception 2") can never occupy flags. - AT teams can occupy flags until they run out of ammo. Same goes for vehicles and large calibre guns; once out of ammo they're useless for guarding flags. (But as soon as the crew bails out, they can guard the flag...) Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 24, 2001 Author Share Posted January 24, 2001 Thanks for the responses so far. To summarise what I believe the response to be to my questions:- >>>Is it better to kill straggling Inf / Arty observers / HQ units, or keep control of flags. Which will get you more points? No one knows for sure but it is likely that the flags are worth more. >>> What is the miniumum to keep control of a flag? Armed men and if they are out of ammo then they dont count. >>> Do you get full points for killing a Arty FO which has called in all his rounds? Who knows?? I have been reading the other threads and I know that if the enemy are dead then you win and that it is better to go for good terrain that controls the battlefield rather than the flags. However, the "game" is flag based and to win the "game" it seems flags are worth more than dead opposition. I had a reduced platoon of men chasing down the enemy when they should have been sat on the flag to win the "game". If I looked at the result it was fair for the reality of the situation, as far as one can envisage the reality of moving sprites around a computer generated battlefield. As for the fun it was outstanding and even if I had lost the amount of pleasure generated by the whole situation was outstanding. Thxs again for the responses. Cheers H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graaf Spee Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Holien, You get full points for killing an obeserver regardless if he has any rounds left. Regarding killing units or holding flags, it depends (like everything else) . You can try counting the unit points and then compare them to the flag (100/300). But remember that the game is decided on the pointRATIO. Sometimes its worth it sometimes not. But its usually more satisfying to kill all your opponents troops, so thats what I usually do. Or at least try to do An example : 1000 ME with one 300point flag. Lets say you have lost one whole platoon which costed 100 ponits to purchase. That means your opponent have exactly 100 points. How many points you have is usually almost impssible to tell but lets say you have destroyed one whole platoon (150 points) and one tank with crew (150 points) for a total of 300 ponts. If there were no flag you would now be the winner (you 300, opponent 100) which means you get a scoore of 75 and your opponent 25, a 3:1 ratio. Which would mean a tactical (?). Lets count with the flag. Lets say its contested. You still have 300 points and your opponent has 100. BUT the 300 points for the flag belongs to noone. So there is 700 points, and 'the computer' gets 300 that means that in the endgamescreen your scoore plus your opponents wont add up to 100. You will get a scoore of 43 and your opponent gets 14. 3:1 ratio If the flag is in your opponents possession, then you still get 300 points while your opponent gets 400. Your scoore 43 and your opponents 57. A draw (?) If its in your possession, you now have 600 points while your opponent still has 100. Your scoore is 86 and opponents 14. A total vicory! Or maybe a major, I cant remember the exact ratios (age do that to you) So if you have the flag do you leave it to kill more units? The answer is of course a big NOOOOO! (that is,if you oly are interested in winning) You would have to kill units worth 300 points without loosing any yourself just to get even. But you just have to leave one little halfsquad behind to remain in possession of the flag. Then you can go and kill him. Especially the FOs. I hate them almost as much as I hate dwarfs in Myth! Does all this make any sense? I hope so. Otherwise you can try a few hotseats with yourself. /Kristian ps This might seem a little (very!) gamey but since you never know what the opponents losses are I doubt anyone will use it to win a game. Except maybe in some very special circumstances... Edited because I dont know how to use a calculator... [This message has been edited by Graaf Spee (edited 01-25-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 25, 2001 Author Share Posted January 25, 2001 Excellent, That is the stuff I wanted without actually wanting to do the work to find out. (I am lazy) You are a star and I am grateful that you have shared that with me (and everyone else). I now have a better understanding of the mechanics and so does everyone else who wants to know. I, like you, know that it is "gamey" but I hate to point out that it is after all only a game. (A very special and most excellent one which has me hooked.) In the situation that happened the result was fair on the basis of a "real life" assessment of the situation, IMO. However, in the basis of the game I missed out on a Minor Victory and a sense of satisfaction becuase I abandoned the flag to go for his men. Now I know more of the mechanics of the game I can take that into account and decide my approach as I wish. I play the game to give me a better understanding of WWII and for sheer enjoyment. It straddles both of these well for me. However, the flag aspect and last minute rushes do take a (ever so) slight edge off this game. I have had some games drawn where in reality the situation would have been a win for the myself. Like an opponent taking the one flag with a MKIV at the last moment and to have it surrounded without Inf support by my Inf that had run out of AT rounds. I think the idea of a variable number of turns would help defeat that "gamey" play. But as it is a game then one must work within the rules of the system and understand them so that you stand a chance of winning. After all is said and done, that is the aim of this game. I get far more from the game than just winning and even losing is fun and when I lose I learn more. But the winning is the cherry on the cake. Playing the game against a good opponent is like eating the cake, but winning is having the cake and eating it... (Yeah I know flame me... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Okay, if I read correctly between the lines in this thread, each killed unit is worth the same amount of victory points as purchase points? Then a single heavy tank or heavy artillery FO is worth just as much as a large flag. Shooting down aircraft is worth almost as much too. And most AFVs are worth more than a small flag. Who knows exactly how victory points for fighting (scaring off, routing, causing casualties, eliminate or destroy) enemies is calculated? Which is better; causing one casualty in each of ten ten-man squads, or eliminating one of the ten squads? Cheers Olle ------------------ Strategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graaf Spee Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Olle, the way Ive understood it is that you get points only for the actual killing, routing the troops wont affect your final scoore. It just makes it easier to take a flag or kill other units. And I think that killing one man in ten squads will give you the same points. Anyone else? /Kristian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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