US 60mm versus British 50.8mm mortars

[dalem]

Originally posted by Sanok:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sanok:

Can the 60mm mortar round be struck against something hard and thrown like a grenade, as was shown in Saving Private Ryan, or was that just Hollywood?

Yes. There are at least two WWII U.S. Medal of Honor accounts that describe that activity. Arm it, bang it, heave it, and bum out some Japanese or Germans close by.

-dale </font>

[CobaltTiger]

Nice link dalem, fascinating reading. I managed to find one of the listings you mentioned after a bit of searching:

ANDERSON, BEAUFORD T.

Rank and organization: Technical Sergeant, U.S. Army, 381st Infantry, 96th Infantry Division. Place and date: Okinawa, 13 April 1945. Entered service at: Soldiers Grove, Wis. Birth: Eagle, Wis. G.O. No.: 63, 27 June 1946. Citation: He displayed conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty. When a powerfully conducted predawn Japanese counterattack struck his unit's flank, he ordered his men to take cover in an old tomb, and then, armed only with a carbine, faced the onslaught alone. After emptying 1 magazine at pointblank range into the screaming attackers, he seized an enemy mortar dud and threw it back among the charging Japs, killing several as it burst. Securing a box of mortar shells, he extracted the safety pins, banged the bases upon a rock to arm them and proceeded alternately to hurl shells and fire his piece among the fanatical foe, finally forcing them to withdraw. Despite the protests of his comrades, and bleeding profusely from a severe shrapnel wound, he made his way to his company commander to report the action. T/Sgt. Anderson's intrepid conduct in the face of overwhelming odds accounted for 25 enemy killed and several machineguns and knee mortars destroyed, thus single-handedly removing a serious threat to the company's flank.

[Paco QNS]

quote:

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I find it odd, that a private in the paratroopers would know to do that with the mortar rounds, but a captain in the Rangers didn't.

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Well, it is just a movie. And I have no idea how disseminated that type of info was. Certainly it was nothing you'd contemplate unless totally desperate.

-dale

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Note: what follows are funded speculations, based in Hogg´s book cited in a previous post, and the excerpting of some mortar manual I have fast-readed. I only own an annex on the tactical use of 81 mm mortars, Laffitte and Valero -one big brother of the 50mm one-.

The knowledge on "how-fuzes-and-safety-catches-work"

Mortar grenades case

Refering to the Army, excluding mortar-rounds/fuzes producers, and their personnel (male and female).

a) Technical NCOs

Those in charge of explosive ammo, grenades, mortar rounds and so.

They "need-to-know", mainly to supervise the arm-on of that kind of rounds and to teach it to the ammo NCO/Corporal in the mortar crew (case of the 3" mortars).

((Apart from other reasons, that´s why it was a very good idea to use the same system in all types of mortar rounds -when possible-)).

The manteinance/repairment of fuzes corresponds him, also, though I think it was mainly preventive: assure fuzes are not corroded; nor drowned; nor mistrated, ... etc

In cases of necessity -scarcity, siege,...- he HAD to put in order enough "doubtful-fuzes/rounds", and best, all-of-them.

Ammo NCO/Corporal in each crew

To suplement (a) in every mortar/battery.

c) Mortar commander

He had to know exactly how fuzes-and-mortar-rounds worked. Mainly, to instile in him the absolute respect to the proper procedures in case of misfire ((classic in mortars)), and a horror-tale to inspire his men that respect.

Useful also to supplement (a) and (.

d) probably I left out others. Suggests?

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Back to the point, even a lowly private CAN know the fuze-workaround, if he is specialized enough.

A Political-Economy teacher of mine repeated, thrice per semester, ""La especialización en Ciencia, más que una virtud es una conveniencia"" (("Specialization in Science, more than a Virtue is a convenience"). But I digress...

A Rangers Captain was specialized in leading men... Also in all weapons, both reglamentary and special -all of them-, and enemy weapons ... On every kind of tactics, both sane and less-sane ... He had to know enough, about almost everything and every-tasks in his command. The private had to know everything, in one task.

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The spanish catch-phrase related is:

""Las reclamaciones/quejas, al Maestro Armero"".

(( Claims/Complaints, to the Tech Sergeant.- Is a classic in the noble sport of passing-the-buck/hotpotato. ))

I can imagine a soldier in the old Tercios, claiming to his Sarge (he who carries the halbard): "Saaargeee, my ´cabuzzz does´nt work anymore. And that "noble" man, with enough problems to kill six captains, using the magical phrase to evade/dilate ...

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Regards...

[Sailor Malan]

Originally posted by Paco QNS:

[QB] In Re to SailorM:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The 2" mortar (sorry, 51mm) was still in use in the British Army in 2001, since I saw it used at a firepower demonstration on Salisbury Plain. 2 of them produced a smoke screen say 200m long in about 6 or 8 rounds at c 400m range, very quickly (less than 30 secs I would say). Since the ground dipped from the firing point and then rose again, they were

firing only 30deg or so from the horizontal (definitely not in the upper register). Very light, and versatile weapon.

the 51mm mortar is not the same weapon as the classic 2" . Can´t say what weapon was used in that demo, but find doubtful it was the old.

</font>

[Paco QNS]

I wasn't saying it was the ww2 2"

Beg pardon, my misunderstanding.

you answered your own question

Question? What question? It is/was a doubt!. Of course, if you saw those mortars in the demo, fired while been holding with one hand, that would dissipate my doubt. ((and yes, I can imagine you were at a longer distance than you wish. If fire demos included MBT and heavy guns, they put you safely away. )).

Thanks for the link!

amplified image of the 51mm mortar

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The fashion of "commando"-type mortars

In the late seventies and eighties of the past century, a kind of mortars was reborn. The Japanese Army used in WW2 the "infamously" called "Knee mortar", specially noted for his misgivious name, that led allied soldiers to employ captured mortars using their own legs as baseplates (or so told allied manual, that overemphasized "How NOT to use that weapon").

The new theories post-Vietnam led to the use of lighter weapons, with more punch and requiring less personnel. Mortars hold with one -or both hands- were designed and marketed.

Both the modern 51mm british mortar and the ECIA 60 MM "Commando" mortar were members in that tribe, and there were others I can´t place now. For one, the spanish 60mm model was tried in units, but AFAIK not in wholespread regular service. There are leftovers of the preseries in several elite units

Personally I´ve always considered disturbing the "hand-holding" issue (perhaps influenced by the horror tales of the "knee mortar"). The shockwave of firing, continually and for long time can´t be good for both hand-bones and tendons!, though the use of gloves and an aislant holder.

Regards.