From Worst to Best?

[Shosties]

Originally posted by A Panzer:

The U-boats never went from best to worst. They simply became overwhelmed like the rest of the German military. The type XXI U-boat was one the best subs until nuculer subs came along and they never ceased to be a threat compleatly until the final few months of the war.

USN sub crewmen who had the chance to inspect type XXI boats after the end of the war would likely diagree with you. As with many pieces of German "wonder gear" they look better on paper. They were rushed in design and construction.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if the UMC was outstanding at CAS from start to finish, in large part because it's an integrated service and CAS would be the logical function of the UMC air arm, whereas the Army Air Corps started the war with its gaze fixed on strategic airpower and thought of CAS as an irritating distraction. But I don't know many details about Marine Corps CAS. Would be glad to learn more.

USMC (stand for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, or possibly U Signed the Muthaf... Contract)

Marine CAS doctrine began developement in the early 20's (Haiti) including dive bombing. By WW2, they had an excellent system in place (a system that is still used basically to this day). It was either in Haiti or Nicaragau that Udet (IIRC) saw what the Jarheads were doing and became the basis of German CAS and the Stuka. I honestly believe the key to it is that you have a FAC Officer that is a pilot (usually from the squadron that is supporting you). That gives you a FAC that speaks pilotese, and it gives the pilots flyin' a personal reason for not screwing up.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

USMC (stand for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, or possibly U Signed the Muthaf... Contract)

Marine CAS doctrine began developement in the early 20's (Haiti) including dive bombing. By WW2, they had an excellent system in place (a system that is still used basically to this day). It was either in Haiti or Nicaragau that Udet (IIRC) saw what the Jarheads were doing and became the basis of German CAS and the Stuka. I honestly believe the key to it is that you have a FAC Officer that is a pilot (usually from the squadron that is supporting you). That gives you a FAC that speaks pilotese, and it gives the pilots flyin' a personal reason for not screwing up. [/QB]

Ooops. USMC it is.... sounds like their approach was the model for all that followed. I know the US Army had adopted making the FAC Officer a tac support pilot by late 1944. Are there reasons to believe that the USMC model remained better than the German or US Army model, even through the end of the war? And, BTW, what were these Marine pilot's flying? Dauntlesses early? Corsairs later? Was CAS stressed in pilot training? My understanding is that most US Army pilots learned it, well, on the fly....

And thanks for the word so far...

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

I know the US Army had adopted making the FAC Officer a tac support pilot by late 1944. Are there reasons to believe that the USMC model remained better than the German or US Army model, even through the end of the war?

There area number of advantages to the way the Marines did things. To begin with, the air support was part of the same 'family'. Techically, the Air Corps was part of the Army, but in reality it may as well have been a seperate branch. That in its self gives the pilots a personal stake in doing things right. Also, because of the closer ties between air and ground, there was closer coordination

And, BTW, what were these Marine pilot's flying? Dauntlesses early? Corsairs later?

Buffalos, Wildcats (all they had at Henderson Field IIRC), Dauntlesses, Corsairs.

Was CAS stressed in pilot training? My understanding is that most US Army pilots learned it, well, on the fly....

CAS is job number one. That would be the main focus of any Marine pilot's training. Basic Marine philosophy is you are either a basic rifleman, or you support the riflemen. Even Marine fighter squadrons fly CAS missions.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms: And, BTW, what were these Marine pilot's flying? Dauntlesses early? Corsairs later?

Buffalos, Wildcats (all they had at Henderson Field IIRC), Dauntlesses, Corsairs.</font>

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms: And, BTW, what were these Marine pilot's flying? Dauntlesses early? Corsairs later?

Buffalos, Wildcats (all they had at Henderson Field IIRC), Dauntlesses, Corsairs.</font>

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms: And, BTW, what were these Marine pilot's flying? Dauntlesses early? Corsairs later?

Buffalos, Wildcats (all they had at Henderson Field IIRC), Dauntlesses, Corsairs.</font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

After some research into the matter at hand, I discovered Mr Emrys is absolutely correct.

Brother Boggs has seen the light! Halleluh!

Michael

[Gyrene]

Was CAS stressed in pilot training? My understanding is that most US Army pilots learned it, well, on the fly....

CAS is the sole reason for Marine aviation. Shooting down other planes is a side benefit, but is considered the Navy's job.

The USMC also had a very highly developed system of Naval gunfire support, with a dedicated controller and often with Destroyers assigned to support specific units with direct fire. (Regimental and Battalion level)

Gyrene