U.S. and British Infantry Divisions

[Harry Yeide]

Originally posted by JonS:

Right, but the tpt provided by the tanks and TD isn't organic to the regt. Using a whole battalion of tracked vehs to, 'in a pinch', help one of the regts fwd isn't really all that different to allocating a GS tpt coy for the same task. (Although it's probably easier to arrange givn that the track bn is already allocated to the div)

As a practical matter, the tank and TD battalions were organic to the division cited in the example. And as a practical matter, non-organic trucks were almost always available in sufficient numbers to motorize US infantry divisions when needed. Why pick nits?

[JonS]

Originally posted by Harry Yeide:

Why pick nits?

It's what we do? On a more mundane level, perhaps because words like 'organic' mean specific things?

Why be sloppy with language when the tools are all there?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by JonS:

Why be sloppy with language when the tools are all there?

Some people seem to be resistant to learning to use those tools. Not that I intend including Harry in that category.

Michael

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

I think Trevor Dupuy in Numbers, Predictions and War relates somewhere that one of the US divisions in Italy moved some distance (15 miles?) in one day using their own transport.

That does not strike me as very impressive, but I can see the seeds of the obesity problem in the US right there.

All the best

Andreas

[JasonC]

How motorized were the western Allies?

Well, just a fact for the confused. Through August 31, total manpower landed on the continent, all countries, came to 2.05 million men. Total vehicles? 438,471. Less than 5 men per vehicle.

Another fact for the confused - an average division in Patton's Third Army drank 100,000 gallons of gasoline per day. This fell to 75,000 per day in the Lorraine fighting, as the front moved less.

The gas famine at the end of August was a period when they only got ~35,000 each over 10 days, average, and that ran them to empty. That supplied 2 ADs, 4 IDs, plus many independent battalions (5 armored, 15 TD, 8 cav, 51 artillery, 20 engineers, and 23 AA). They had 670 mediums at that time - notice, only half of that is the AD "organic" armor. And the 15 battalions of TDs are extra. The 8 cav battalions don't include the 2 others in the ADs, nor the companies in each TD battalion - all told that is about 15 battalion equivalents of cav.

Battalion equivalents organic or not in 3rd army when it reached Lorraine -

artillery - 73 (!)

infantry - 36

engineer - 26

AA - 23

TD - 15

Cav - 15

tank - 11

mech infantry - 6

To compare to German Pz Gdrs, for 6 battalions of infantry those had 3 artillery, 1 armor, 1 recon, 1 PAK, and 1 engineer. (When at actual TOE - often they were at half that in armor, with just 30 StuG for both armor and PAK roles).

The same portion of 3rd Army would have (for 6 IBs or AIBs) 10 artillery, 1.5 armor plus 2 TD, 2 cav, 3 AA, and 4 engineer. Twice the armor and over 3 times the artillery and engineers. By battalion count, half the Pz Gdr force was infantry - only 1/5th of the US force was.

By any measure, it was the most mechanized force in WW II. Of 38 divisions ashore, 15 were armored and the rest were at those levels of higher formation mechanized support.

[JasonC]

Why was the artillery so high? Normally half the guns were divisional in the US force, the other half were higher echelon 155s and such, grouped at corps mostly. Here it was 4 times instead of 2 times. That isn't really representative, though. One corps still assigned to the army was beseiging Brest on this date, and had a large artillery park brought up to batter the fortress. Under more normal circumstances, the artillery support level would have been half that figure - which is still 2/3rds higher than the German standard.

[Harry Yeide]

Case study continued: The 3d Infantry Division engages in mobile warfare and deploys three regiments with attached armor over great distance to mount a combined-arms assault on the objective:

After trucking 75 miles unimpeded by German fire, the 3d Infantry Division’s 7th Infantry Regiment reached the area of Besancon about 0100 hours on 5 September, where the 2d Battalion dismounted to attack the city at 0500. The rest of VI Corps was following, the 36th Infantry Division slanting to protect the left flank around Dole, and the 45th Infantry Division angling toward Beaume-les-Dames farther up the road to Belfort.

Inside Besancon, where the 11th Panzer Division had arrived a day earlier, von Wietersheim had been shocked to receive the first reports that the Americans were approaching Beaume-les-Dames from the south. Soon, the amount of artillery falling on his positions told him that this was no reconnaissance probe. By noon, the lead elements of the 15th Infantry Regiment, 3d Infantry Division, joined the 7th Infantry’s assault, and the rifle companies of both regiments were soon embroiled in stiff fighting along an arc south of the city. Besancon was the first city in which modern American arms pitted themselves against fortifications built by Vauban, and it would go better than most. The Citadel dominated the high ground above the city, while four smaller forts were tied together in a mutually supporting defensive system.

The arrival of the 3d Infantry Division near Besancon unhinged German plans to defend the Doubs River line. Nineteenth Army over the next two days threw the 338th and 198th Infantry divisions and the just-arrived 159th Infantry Division into the breach to relieve the 11th Panzer Division.

German hopes of throwing back the 3d Infantry Division were stillborn. O’Daniel brought all of his regiments into the line on 6 September to attack Besancon from three sides, a task made somewhat easier by the German abandonment of positions south of town during the night. O’Daniel invested the city and captured the smaller forts one by one until, on 7 September, the 1st Battalion, 15th Infantry Regiment, stormed the Citadel.

[Harry Yeide]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Harry Yeide:

Why pick nits?

It's what we do? On a more mundane level, perhaps because words like 'organic' mean specific things?

Why be sloppy with language when the tools are all there? </font>

[JonS]

... and the answer was 'sort of'.

Spt Wpns: yes

Infantry: no, although they could be fairly quickly and easily, albeit temporarily. (And not all infantry could be mot simultaneously)