Your favorite WWII small arm and why

[Tank Ace]

I have a tie between STG 44 and m1 Garand. Both were breakthroughs in gun technology and they changed warfare forever.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by TANK ACE:

I have a tie between STG 44 and m1 Garand. Both were breakthroughs in gun technology and they changed warfare forever.

The Bren for me. Lovely gun, tripod or no.

All the best,

John.

[Herr Klutz]

Give me a mega death kannon Mk. 2 any day...oops...wrong forum...erm...I'd have to go with the MG-42 (if the bren is small arms then so's this...) and B.A.R. 1918 (the SAW's grandaddy)

[flamingknives]

SMLE. I saw one used to demonstrate rapid fire with a bolt action rifle and was most impressed.

[Tank Ace]

(if the bren is small arms then so's this...)

All pistols, rifles , assault rifles, and MGs are small arms. Things like 20mm are not. Some people think small arms are just pistols.

[laxx]

things i try to buy during a QB:

Axis:

- MP44

Allied:

- .50 HMG

the MG 42 is great but its high rate of fire means the ammo runs out too fast in CM. Perhaps the MG 34 would have been a better but slower choice.

[Tank Ace]

Im not sure where people get MP 44 at when it was really called the STG 44. I do know that Hitler wasn't interested in new rifles and that they called the STG 44 the MP 44 to make sure that he wouldn't get mad. But since it is now long past, i just wonder why people call it the MP 44.

[Maj. Battaglia]

Originally posted by TANK ACE:

Im not sure where people get MP 44 at when it was really called the STG 44.

The part about hiding development from Hitler is true. When Hitler found out about the MP 43 and heard how successful it was, he ordered the name changed to Sturmgewehr 43. This from Feldgrau.

I've most often seen it referred to as StG 43/MP 44, as the MP 44 was apparently a slightly different model, but basically the same thing.

So the confusion is certainly understandable. I'd be interested to see more specific references to determine what is technically correct.

[flamingknives]

It's called the MP44 in CM, which is obviously the font of all knowledge on the subject.

[Dandelion]

I'd have to call it a draw between the Tokarew M1940 SVT and the Garand M1.

The Gewehr 41 doesn't reach the same standard of design, speaking both performance and craftsmanship, and indeed beauty of lines.

Have a soft spot for the Arisaka 38 (M1905) as well, but perhaps its just an affinity for antiquities popping up there. Early war models of the Lee Enfield and Beretta smg's are really nice too, but they seem to drop previous ambitions of aesthetics as war progresses.

Actually I have a soft spot for the really, really ugly ones as well; the Sten, M3 and Mannlicher Carcano. It is difficult to comprehend how such Goblins could ever have been conceived. I feel an urge to defend their rights as outcast minorities, shunned by normality.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[fridericus]

in my opinion the mg42 was the best.

i shot in real life with it any thousends rounds and you hit very well and its a great feeling.

[Dandelion]

Very dramatic twist there on Feldgrau. But the StG 44 story is a telling one of wartime arms production in Germany, and perhaps deserves being told in greater detail.

As early as the 1920's, the army found that the 9mm cartridge used in most then serving smg's placed an unacceptable limit on effective range as well as accuracy. The HWaA (Heeres Waffen Amt - 'Army Weapons Department' sort of) thus ordered a new weapon, which they called "Mkb" (maschinnekarabiner - Machine Carbine), to use the standard 8x57IS cartridge, then in use with all carbines and machineguns. In April 1938, the contract was awarded to the rival companies Haenel (in Suhl) and Polte (in Magdeburg). Both were rather small companies at the time and so it was not a priority contract. Polte later dropped out and was replaced by the significantly larger Carl Walther company in january 1941.

The specs of the order were fairly straightforward:

- Not longer nor heavier than a the 98k carbine. Shorter and lighter if possible of course.

- Accuracy not less than the 98k.

- Rifle grenade attachment for 98k must be attachable.

- Simple mechanism, fully covered (against dirt).

- Theroetical rate of fire between 360 and 450 rpm.

Haenel was able to deliver the requested 50 prototypes on time, June 1942. Walther missed the deadline with their 200 prototypes. The weapons were issued to troops for field tests, and the HWaA opted for the Haenel design - the Mkb42 (H). The Mkb42 (W) had proven too complicated and had several designs not liked by the troops, making it difficult to handle.

Only some 12 000 of the Mkb42 were produced, i.e. a normal testproduction run. These weapons were issued to troops for field testing.

But production (massproduction) was never ordered, as it was considered too demanding in resources, and not urgent enough (compared to other needs). I've never seen any results of these initial tests and don't know what unit received the weapons either. It would probably not have mattered, the decision to stop was not due to any shortcoming of the weapon itself. It was also certainly not the decision of Hitler alone, but primarily that of the HWaA and OKW. Assets were simply needed for other production lines.

But the project did not end. The Gustloff company was still contracted to develop a Mkb using the standard 7,92mm rifle cartridge. Going had been slow, but the Haenel design team (containing among others Hugo Schmeisser) joined the effort and contributed their own design ideas (cheifly the firing mechanism) as well as some old Walther ideas. The result was the Mkb43(G).

Only a handful of prototypes were built, as the army was still denying any new Mkb designs as had been previously decided. It is here that the Mkb was simply renamed MP43 in a rather surprising bid from the private companies to fool HWaA (and utlimately, fool Hitler himself). This way, they got access to testing production, producing some 14 000 "MP43" that were issued mainly to I.D.93. Immediately upon testline production, the ruse was discovered and the project cancelled.

No, nobody was shot or hanged.

However, the I.D.93 testresults from October 1943, when it had been engulfed in very heavy battle, were very positive. So positive in fact, the HWaA came to reconsider the original plans and suggest to OKW (and thus Hitler) that massproduction should after all be commenced. What primarily convinced OKW were the reports from I.D.93 about how the need for machineguns was drastically reduced. This fact seemed to hold many promises of future rationalisation of both production and unit firepower. The decision was taken to introduce the new cartridge and commence production.

In march 1944 a slightly altered prototype (chiefly firing pin) was introduced, carrying the name MP44. This name was simply a heritage from the bogus naming of the Mkb 43. Nonetheless, mass production began using the MP44 model. Production was still low intensity and low priority. It was not until a delegation of several divisional commanders, severeal types of divisions, visited the OKW and testified in great detail to the efficiency of the new weapon that it was turned into a priority production (Besondere Dringlichkeit). The companies Steyr, Sauer and Walther were then all involved in the production and in December 1944, the weapon was rechristened StG 44 (a.k.a. Stgw 44). Production companies tended to still call it MP44, as that was the name in their contracts, but to the army it was StG 44 from 12/44 on.

Initial outspoken objective was to replace MP40 with StG 44, with a visionary aim of replacing rifles and squad light machineguns as well in a distant future. But there was only a total of 425 977 weapons all models of Mkb43(G), MP43, MP44/StG44 produced during the war. So the Germans never came anywhere near objectives (there were over a million MP38/40 in service, along with large quantities of other smg's).

It was the research and introduction of standards that were so costly, not the weapons themselves. A StG 44 costed about 66 RM to produce, as compared to about 65 RM for a 98k rifle, so it wasn't particularly expensive.

Regards

Dandelion

[Maj. Battaglia]

Thanks Dandelion. In the back of my mind I was thinking ot would be you to come through with the goods, and so you have. Great information.

[Dandelion]

Thanks Major, happy to oblige. The input as well as the photos below are from two publications, the publishers of one being American.

Also hope Tank Ace won't stomp me for this minor hijack.

Anyway, here is the "original" maschinekarabiner that inspired the 1938 contract from HWaA, a Walther design which for various reasons was unsuitable for mass production:

Looks more than a little like the M1 Carbine does it not? Except tho nose, which looks very H&K to me.

Here is the loser of the first trials, the Walther Mkb:

Which still contained many bright ideas later incorporated into Mkb43(G)/MP43.

And the winner, the Haenel prototype:

Already looking a lot like we know it (this is 1942).

This is the Gustloff Mkb, the one that faked the name to MP43 and entered testproduction:

And here is the MP44 which, other than the finishing, was identical to StG 44 (The StG 44 had a more matt finishing - all German weapons did after 1/45):

The differences between MP44 and 43 are not evident here, being internal.

Regards

Dandelion

[exSpecForSgt]

This is a very interesting topic, but my reply is probably be a bit "different"... As part of my training (yes, it was a loooong time ago), I got to fire most of the firearms mentioned so far. I then had the dubious 'pleasure' of using a few "in the field". {Okay, okay, so it wasn't in the =field=, it was in the -jungle-! So, sue me. }

Pistol: my favorite is the old reliable, .45-auto. Yes, it kicks like a mule, but when you hit someone - and it matters not -where- you hit him - he's knocked on his butt. Then, if still necessary, you can put another round in him as he's trying to get up.

A close second, but only because of ease of use, =not= because of KD Factor, is the Walther P-38. Yes, I'm partial to (so-called) 'automatics' - revolvers just don't do a thing for me.

Rifle: the M-1 Garand!! Damn sweet, and "M-1 thumb" is only a problem for those who don't know what they're doing. It's also solid enough that you can actually -use- a bayonet with it, if you need to.

Bolt-action rifles are okay, but, IMNSHO, only practical for snipers .. and then, of course, you want the best you can find.

SMGs: I -personally- preferred the Thompson, because it used the .45 ACP round. Yes, the effective-range tended to be rather short-ish, but if you're concerned about longer ranges, you shouldn't be looking at an SMG in the first place.

A close second, naturally, was the various German MPs, because they're really nice & efficient, but they only use the 9mm round, so... [shrug]

(I didn't think much of the various Russian SMGs. Yeah, they're great for mass-production and for issuing to troops with minimal training, but otherwise... [blech])

MGs: this leaves me not really with a "favorite", because the question -to- =me= is "favorite -for- -what- =purpose=?" If you're asking about something 'organic' for the platoon, I'll point out that the Germans had a =very= nice one, which worked great on a bi-pod. So nice, in fact, that the US Army essentially copied it when they made the M-60 "Pig".

For mounting on a vehicle and for just plain kicking-a$$, the .50 is the only way to go! Of course, if you have to hump it by foot - Forget It!! It's too heavy and the ammo supply is too little.

Well, I guess I've rambled on too long, so I'll shut up, now. Take care, all, and have fun.

[Tank Ace]

I saw the thing about german small arms of WWII on history channel and the MP44 was another name for the STG 44. So they are the same weapon. But the STG 44 and the M1 garand. There both revolutionary. And plus i love that name Sturmgewehr(sp?). The goal of the germans was to get a STG 44 to every soldier but of course it didn't make it to every soldier. I really wish i could own that weapon.

[ July 08, 2003, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: TANK ACE ]

[drkilledbydeath87]

Personally id have to go with the Mk 4 Le Enfield, seeing as how my dad owns one, and a Mk 2. As well id have to say i enjoy the Mauser Kar 98, as my dads hunting buddy owns one of those and i have gotten the wonderful chance to fire both. His kar comes handily with a 3 inch steel butt and german iron cross, Such a pretty gun.

[Björn Eriksson]

The MG42, I just like the sound it makes when spitting hot lead at the bolshevik hordes

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Can't go past the Owen Mk1 SMG. The perfect SMG for jungle fighting with incredible reliability and practicality. Legend has it that one was deliberately buried in a bog then dug up 3 months later to see if it would still function. All the tester had to do was cock it and it proceeded to fire off its full 30 round magazine no problems!

Regards

Jim R.