Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I thought I would ask if anyone is in the know on how much transport was typically assigned to a British infantry division and, I guess, more specifically the 46th Infantry division around late 1943 as it fought its way up the Italian theatre. I'm currently involved in a campaign where there's a bit of a query on how much armoured transport was typically inherent in the division (i.e. Bren Gun Carriers, halftracks etc) compared with just the trucks. Also, I'm hoping someone may know how often a section or two of tanks would be attached to the division for specific battles or was the armour always operated independantly from the infantry division command structures? I know for instance the 46th had a reconnaissance regiment but would this typically only have vehicles such as Humbers and perhaps Daimlers or were there ever any MBT's as part of such a regiment perhaps? Any help would be appreciated. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: I thought I would ask if anyone is in the know on how much transport was typically assigned to a British infantry division and, I guess, more specifically the 46th Infantry division around late 1943 as it fought its way up the Italian theatre. Troop Carrying Vehicles (TCVs) were assigned to Royal Army Service Corps transport companies. There were not generally enough vehicles to lift the entire division's complement of infantry. If halftracks existed in infantry divisions, they were used as battalion command post vehicles. They were found in Motor battalions of armoured divisions, and in armoured regiments as inter-communication vehicles, etc. Infantry divisions did not have them on establishment AFAIK. Tanks from independent armoured brigades were often teamed with infantry divisions in action. Infantry divisions never had their own tanks. Reconnaissance regiments never had tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 Thanks for that Michael. I've been trying to find a site using Google and various search words/phrases that has some sort of history of actions the 46th Infantry Division fought in Italy but all to no avail so far. If such a site exists I guess any AAR's will provide information on how often and to what extent AFV's were attached to the division and hopefully some more info. on the types of veicles the reconnaissance regiment had. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Look through the battle reports on Gerry Chester's site, searching for the term "46th". http://www.northirishhorse.org/ Gerry posts on the AHF as well, in case you can not contact him through his site. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Troop Carrying Vehicles (TCVs) were assigned to Royal Army Service Corps transport companies. There were not generally enough vehicles to lift the entire division's complement of infantry.IIRC, there would have been enough to lift about 1/3rd of the division withourt recourse to additional army-level RASC truck companys. Depending on the nature of the campaign there is no reason to exclude these higher level attachements. If halftracks existed in infantry divisions, they were used as battalion command post vehicles.Yep. Figure 1, maybe 2 halftracks per inf bn, with perhaps another 1 or two in each 25-pr bty, and maybe a couple with the signals geeks. All would be fitted out as command posts. Each inf bn had a carrier pn of ?13? bren carriers, plus another dozen or so in the bn A-Tk pn and a similar amount in the bn 3-in mortar pn. The MMG bn had a large number (60+) of carriers to lug the MMGs and 4.2-in mtrs about (erm ... 1943 ... hmm, the support bns underwent a couple of major re-orgs that year, so there may not be any 4.2-in in the spt bns). The divisional A-Tk regt would probably have some quantity of bren-carriers and halftracks, depending on how it was equipped with 6-pr and/or 17-pr. About the only time I can think of where all these disparate vehs were collected and used as infantry carriers was for Op TOTALISE in Normandy, Aug 1944. I'd be very hesitant about doing that in Italy though. I mean, it could be done, but there is no precedent for doing it. The penalties for doing it should be severe - ie, no mobility for the MMGs, A-Tk guns, etc; Reduced effectiveness for all the elements that've just lost their dedicated HQ vehs; Large scale and widespread disruption as first the vehs are stripped out of the units ("Bloody 'ell sarge - what am I going to do with all this crap we used to keep in the carrier?") then later returned ("Bloody 'ell sarge - now I have to put all this crap back in the carrier. And look what a bloody mess those footsloggers made of me carrier!") ... or not due to losses. Oh, there'd also be a knock-on effect in terms of much reduced supply forward to fighting units as their dedicated supply vehicles were instead busy saving wear and tear on the infantry's boots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 Thanks for all that info. Jon & Andreas. I don't suppose you happen to know what the typical vehicles were that equipped the reconnaissance regiment and in what proportion? i.e. roughly 2 Humbers to every Daimler sort of thing? Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Thanks for all that info. Jon & Andreas. I don't suppose you happen to know what the typical vehicles were that equipped the reconnaissance regiment and in what proportion? i.e. roughly 2 Humbers to every Daimler sort of thing? Regards Jim R. I do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: I don't suppose you happen to know what the typical vehicles were that equipped the reconnaissance regiment and in what proportion? i.e. roughly 2 Humbers to every Daimler sort of thing?I'll have a look, although most of my info is for mid-late 1944 and NWE. Could you give a date-range that you are particularly interested in please? That'll help provide something more relevant. Cheers Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 . [ July 25, 2007, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Alrighty, from various sources ... **** "Handbook on the British Army 1943" (ed. Chris Ellis & Peter Chamberlain) ... consists of a headquarters, a headquarters squadron, and 3 squadrons, each of which is composed of a headquarters, 3 scout troops, and an assault troop. Headquarters squadron consists of an anti-aircraft troop, a signal troop, a mortar troop, an anti-tank troop, and an administrative troop. The regiment is wholly motorized, includes 52 armoured reconnaissance cars and 70 carriers, and has a strength of 40 officers and 753 enlisted men. ...**** "British Army Handbook 1939-1945" (George Forty) * HQ - 1 x AC * HQ Sqn - A tk bty - 8 x 6-pr - Mor tp - 6 x 3-in mor - Sigs tp - Admin tp * Sabre Sqns each - SHQ - 3 x scout tps (ACs, LRCs & Bren carrs) - Asslt tp - rfn in halftracks * No of Sqns in regt - 3 x Recce Sqns * Total AFVs - ACs (Humbers) 28, - LRCs (Humbers) 24, - Bren carrs 63 * Strength - 41 Officers - 755 ORs**** "Victory in the West, vol 1, The Battle of Normandy" (LF Ellis) Reconnaissance Regiments Headquarters: one armoured car Headquarter squadron: anti-tank battery (eight 6-pdr guns); mortar troop (six 3-in mortars); signals and administrative troops. Three reconnaissance squadrons: each a headquarters, three scout troops with armoured cars, light reconnaissance cars and Bren carriers, and one assault troop of riflemen in armoured half-track carriers. Total armoured fighting vehicles: armoured cars (Humbers) 28; light reconnaissance cars (Humbers) 24; Bren carriers 63 Strength: 41 Officers and 755 Other Ranks.**** "The British Soldier, vol 2" (Jean Bouchery) * Regt HQ * * HQ Sqn - 1 Humber Armoured Car - 9 Bren Carriers - 8 6 pounder AT guns (+13 carriers, presumably) - 6 3-in. mortars (+10 carriers, presumably) * Signal Troop (Royal Corps of Signals) * Light Aid Detachment (Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers) * Reconnaissance Squadron (x3) - 1 Humber Armoured Car - 1 Reconnaissance Car * * Assault Troop - 4 Half-tracks * * Scout Troop (x3) - 6 Bren Carriers - 2 Humber Armoured Cars - 2 Humber Scout Cars**** I also have a very detailed OrBat in a PDF for 2(NZ)Div Cav for Aug 1943 through Sept 1944, however they used a very different organisation (3 sqns, each sqn with six tps, tps 1-5 with 3 x Staghound, tp 6 with 3 x Lynx Scout Car, no AT bty, no mortars, no assault tps, no Bren carriers). It won't be directly useful, but it may be of some use looking at the supporting arms (NZ Sigs, EME, etc) and how the officers and ORs slotted together. Drop me a line and I'll flick you a copy. Jon [ July 25, 2007, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 Brilliant, thanks Jon. Just what I was looking for. I'll send you an email to follow up on your other offer as well. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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