Dandelion Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I note that the Germans were extremely impressed by the 2-Pounder's performance in the Western campaign of 1940. They rate it far more dangerous than the French 47mm. This puzzles me somewhat. The SA 47 APX used tungsten rounds and was rated (again by the Germans, though without the benefit of experience) as the world's most powerful antitank gun in 1938. Is anyone able to describe to me in a not-overly-ballistic manner the easons why the 2-Pounders apparently managed to perform better than the SA 47 APX? If indeed it did? Sincerely Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by Dandelion: [snips] This puzzles me somewhat. The SA 47 APX used tungsten rounds Tungsten rounds? Where did you get that from? I can find an SL page that seems to imagine the 47mm used APCR, but it doesn't give a source for this belief. I would be very surprised indeed the French had APCR in 1940. I've never heard it suggested before. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 John D Salt, According to Ganders & Chamberlain's WEAPONS OF THE THIRD REICH, p. 124, the captured versions of these guns had an armor penetration of 80mm at 200 meter range. By contrast, the captured OQF 2 pdr.(op. cit., p. 126) had only 60mm at 193 meters, and the muzzle velocity numbers are practically identical. The ex-French guns are throwing a 1.725 kg shot, while the OQF 2 pdr. is listed as being 1 kg. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by John Kettler: According to Ganders & Chamberlain's WEAPONS OF THE THIRD REICH, p. 124, the captured versions of these guns had an armor penetration of 80mm at 200 meter range. By contrast, the captured OQF 2 pdr.(op. cit., p. 126) had only 60mm at 193 meters, and the muzzle velocity numbers are practically identical. The ex-French guns are throwing a 1.725 kg shot, while the OQF 2 pdr. is listed as being 1 kg. Unfortunately that source (and the earlier WW2 FactFile by the same authors, which gives the same numbers) fails to specify the angle or plate type used, so the comparison isn't worth much. The most trustworthy estimates I have seen of the French 47mm gun's performance are from Jentz' "Panzertruppen" vol. 2 1996, which says that Wa Preuf tests indicated a performance mildly inferior to the Soviet 45mm (39mm at 100m, 33mm at 500m, 26mm at 1000m and 20mm at 1500m, agaisnt plate sloped at 30 degrees). Comparison of the APHE and APCR projectiles for the German Pak 36, 38 and 40 and the Soviet 45mm, 57mm and 76mm guns shows that APCR has a mass between 43% and 59% that of the corresponding APHE round, and a muzzle velocity between 18% and 47% higher. This seems to me to indicate that the mass and velocity figures quoted for the French 45mm cannot refer to an APCR shot -- it's far too heavy, and far too slow. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 John D Salt, Would love to have ALL of the Jentz books, but am lucky to even own the non Jentz WEAPONS OF THE THIRD REICH. I agree that there are serious problems with the quality of the data, though a gander (sorry, couldn't resist) at the list of sources shows lots of solid ones. Your conclusion regarding the lack of APCR for the French 47mm ATGs seems impeccable to me. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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