Newbie needed help w/ demo. Likes it a lot! :)

[Avatar13]

Hi guys. Probably a dumb question but I'm looking for some help with the demo. The readme isn't very detailed in terms of explaining the functions of the units and how to use them properly. I've tried playing as Axis in the Fruhlingswind mission and for the life of me I can't get the HQ & 105 Spotter to do their job. I've had my butt handed to me each time I've played so I've dug around here for tips and I'm now trying to sneak up with these 2 guys so they can look around and maybe target some of the vehicles on the field before sending in my tanks and half tracks so they might survive a little longer... but when I spot an enemy half track and tell the HQ guy to target him, he stands up losing his hiding place and then gets targeted. So I've tried targeting him and then hiding but nothing happens, like the hide command cancels the target command. The "spotter" doesn't have an option to target. Also, the readme says that there is no command communication when the subordinate has a red line, like he's too far away etc. but he's right next to the HQ guys and still there is a red line connecting them. I don't know what I'm doing wrong and there's no manual I can find online that might answer these things and tell me how to actually use them. I'm thinking of buying the game but want to try the demo first but just have no clue how to use the units properly and the readme doesn't help this thick headed guy that I am... :)I would appreciate any help you can give. Thanks!

[ October 20, 2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Avatar13 ]

[Zalgiris 1410]

The HQ only spots for the artillery unit, actually you have to order the artillery spotter team to target for itself not the HQ. Of course both units cannot be hiding and the unit has to be under the HQs direct command which is represented by a Red command Line between the two, this shows that it is in command to this specific HQ.

To have the HQ perform spotted target for your artillery unit it is a good idea to check the HQ's 'line of sight' by using the device at the bottom of its list of orders option first. Then click on the artillery spotter team and you can target at a place that the HQ is able to observe for it given the above provisions, even though the artillery guys can't directly see it. You know that this has worked when the artillery remains area targetted (orangy-yellow line) after you click to order it to fire at somewhere even though the aiming line was saying that its 'line of sight is blocked' and they could not see the spot while the HQ does for it.

This should make the HQ spot for the artillery team while the two spotter guys are not actually seeing the target area themselves. (And are out of danger.)

BTW it is a good idea to position the HQ in concealling terrain while it still has a good field of vision so that it isn't fired at. If it doesn't move it forwards to the target etc, hard to do sometimes while trying to maintan the red lined in command connection to the artillery spotter team! Also, it is a good idea to give it a short ranged covered ark so that it doesn't fire and draw attention to itself either because if it becomes pinned it will stop spotting for the artillery unit.

I've had my butt handed to me each time I've played...

Don't you mean to say that you've had your butt buggard each time?

Best of luck with this magnificent game.

Regards,

Saul.

[ October 15, 2005, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Wicky]

Topic: How Off-map Arty REALLY Works

Search is your friend

CM Wiki Check it out!

[Avatar13]

Thanks for your response Saul!

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

The HQ only spots for the artillery unit, actually you have to order the artillery spotter team to target for itself not the HQ. Of course both units cannot be hiding and the unit has to be under the HQs direct command which is represented by a Red command Line between the two, this shows that it is in command to this specific HQ.

That's odd because in the readme it says this:

Each HQ is rated for its leadership abilities, ie. combat, morale, stealth and command, and a bonus in any of these categories improves the abilities of subordinate troops which are in command, as displayed by the brown command lines visible when you click on a unit – and the “command icon” in the unit info panel, which glows green when a unit is in command, and red when it isn’t.

I guess I just didn't understand what it's actually saying. :confused:

To have the HQ perform spotted target for your artillery unit it is a good idea to check the HQ's 'line of sight' by using the device at the bottom of its list of orders option first. Then click on the artillery spotter team and you can target at a place that the HQ is able to observe for it given the above provisions, even though the artillery guys can't directly see it. You know that this has worked when the artillery remains area targetted (orangy-yellow line) after you click to order it to fire at somewhere even though the aiming line was saying that its 'line of sight is blocked' and they could not see the spot while the HQ does for it.

Hmmm, I guess because I had the spotter hiding near the HQ I wasn't given any option to target at all. Have to try it with him a little farther back and not hiding then.

This should make the HQ spot for the artillery team while the two spotter guys are not actually seeing the target area themselves. (And are out of danger.)

That's odd, I only have one spotter (unit icon guy representing the team) in the mission I'm playing. (for the 105mm)

BTW it is a good idea to position the HQ in concealling terrain while it still has a good field of vision so that it isn't fired at. If it doesn't move it forwards to the target etc, hard to do sometimes while trying to maintan the red lined in command connection to the artillery spotter team! Also, it is a good idea to give it a short ranged covered ark so that it doesn't fire and draw attention to itself either because if it becomes pinned it will stop spotting for the artillery unit.

Yeah, I saw that about the cover arc elsewhere here and have done that but there really isn't any sort of cover where this group of guys are located. Guess I could move them all a bit left or right though to find some.

I've had my butt handed to me each time I've played...

Don't you mean to say that you've had your butt buggard each time?[/QB]

[Avatar13]

Originally posted by Wicky:

Topic: How Off-map Arty REALLY Works

Search is your friend

CM Wiki Check it out!

Duh! I'm used to some other forums that I visit where the search doesn't work so I didn't even look for it! lol Thanks.

[Zalgiris 1410]

That's odd because in the readme it says this:

Each HQ is rated for its leadership abilities, ie. combat, morale, stealth and command, and a bonus in any of these categories improves the abilities of subordinate troops which are in command, as displayed by the brown command lines visible when you click on a unit – and the “command icon” in the unit info panel, which glows green when a unit is in command, and red when it isn’t.

I guess I just didn't understand what it's actually saying.

The readme file must be colour blind or somefink! Red lines are good, Brown lines are...I don't think that there are brown lines except for the sneak command movement waypoint line thingy.

From the above quote from the readme file:

"The 'command icon' in the unit info panel, which glows green when a unit is in command, and red when it isn’t." True, though I admit that I pay no attention to this feature and rely upon those Red or Blacked out command lines. This must have been what had confussed the author of the readme text into type 'brown lines', no waite the basted definately had to be colour blind for sure!!

BTW a 'Grognik question: Actually I've always meant to ask if there is a way to disable those thick spider's cob webs of command lines radiating from HQ units and choking up the UI esp when I've clicked onto a busy HQ unit, anyone know? :confused:

(Then I would have to use the Green or Dead in or out of 'command icon' in the unit info display more.)

[ October 16, 2005, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Wicky]

Is this 105 FO spotter for off-board arty?

If so then he doesn't need to/can't use an HQ unit to spot for him. The HQ can spot for on-board mortars and mortar half-tracks and the FO has to do his own spotting.

That is the system for CMBB and CMAK - CMBO was much simpler and mortars etc could only fire if they direct LOS

[Avatar13]

Originally posted by Wicky:

Is this 105 FO spotter for off-board arty?

If so then he doesn't need to/can't use an HQ unit to spot for him. The HQ can spot for on-board mortars and mortar half-tracks and the FO has to do his own spotting.

That is the system for CMBB and CMAK - CMBO was much simpler and mortars etc could only fire if they direct LOS

Really? I haven't had a chance to try it out yet. If so, why would the spotter (FO) be linked to the HQ unit? Meaning what is the purpose of the HQ unit for the spotter in this case?

Ah... so much to learn and so little time...

[Avatar13]

The readme file must be colour blind

LOL! I was wondering if I was just going nuts here... still might be the case but at least not for this reason.

[Wicky]

The HQ will link up (red lines) and confer various bonuses, depending what his strengths are, to surrounding units within a certain range . Applicable and useful in this case to the FO are morale and stealth. A combat bonus isn't of much benefit to the FO and the command bonus is just an indicator of how loud his voice is! or quickly he can organize runners to pass messages.

Best order the game from BFC from the shop here on this website and enjoy the printed manual! plus all those lovely battle and operation scenarios.

[stoat]

In the demo (Fruhlingswind), the Germans start out with a 105mm (radio) spotter for off-board artillery. Try placing him on the rise with "rough" terrain on the left flank. This is probably the best overwatch position for the Germans. The HQ does nothing for spotting, it just reduces the amount of time it takes for the spotter to execute movement orders. I also wouldn't use it to target vehicles. You will not destroy any tanks, and your armored cars and halftracks can take care of anything lighter.

[when Zalgiris 1410 says "2 guys" he means the two men of the spotter team]

[Zalgiris 1410]

Here are a couple of screenshots to illustrate this a bit more if you are still having problems, hopefully it helps.

(Wicky's links are good for getting fully into handling all things artillery, good reads I recommend them.)

Firstly this is of a HQ unit which can spot to the area where it is aiming at an enemy infantry unit. That is it has a clear Line of Sight to there or put another way that place that it is targetting at is within this HQ's Field of View. It has under command three units, note the 3 Red Command Lines to two different artillery spotter teams positioned in a building behind it and to an on board mortar further back and to the left at a distance of 80 metres. It can spot for each of these units to that area, one of the artillery spotter teams can actually see there on its own, but the other one and the 81mm mortar team need to rely upon the HQ providing observation of the target area.

Here's the HQ. I've got it targeting just to show where it has a LOS to. I did this after I had targetted the other units so you can see that it does. (I wouldn't need to do this in a real game.):

Now after checking that the HQ could see this area I clicked on the artillery spotter and mortar teams and aimed their fire here abouts which was indicating that they couldn't see, because for both their line of sight was blocked. However automatically going up the chain as it were they used their commanding HQ to provide spotting for their 'blind' indirect area fire. Thus in the next pic the aimed targetting line is that of an 'orangy-yellw' area fire line.

Here's the 81mm mortar team after targeting, note that this line goes through buildings etc, and wouldn't normally be able to aim where it is here on its own devices from its position:

Hope this is clear enough, I was just mucking around here to show you Avatar13 since I'm not au fait with the demo.

[ October 16, 2005, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[stoat]

That's a good explanation, Zalgiris 1410, but I think he's talking about artillery, and not mortars. However, Avatar13, this is a good thing to read before playing that scenario as the Americans.

[Zalgiris 1410]

It works the same way and i did so in my example but I just chose to show the on board mortar because it was more 'standing alone' there. If Avatar13 has further problems I can upload the screenshot of the artillery spotter team using the HQ to spot for its 'blind' indirect fire at the same area!

Edit: I meant to thank you in agreement stoat:

when Zalgiris 1410 says "2 guys" he means the two men of the spotter team

[ October 16, 2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Avatar13]

Originally posted by Wicky:

The HQ will link up (red lines) and confer various bonuses, depending what his strengths are, to surrounding units within a certain range...

Ah yes of course. I did read that. Thanks for the reminder.

Best order the game from BFC from the shop here on this website and enjoy the printed manual! plus all those lovely battle and operation scenarios.

Hehe, I think I will be doing so but still wanted to play the demo a bit as my mate didn't tell me much about it (He's down south doing volunteer work now so I haven't been able to ask him) and I wanted to make sure this wasn't going to be some type of click-fest game as I never could get into those that made me race against a clock or anything of that sort... I like turn based games so I can actually think about strategy. May not be "realistic" but this is a game for bloody sake! I want to be entertained, not frustrated.

Now, thanks to all of your help, I'm starting to learn how to actually play this game with some knowledge instead of guessing so the fun factor is sure to go up! I don't mind losing if it's due to bad decisions/tactics but if it's because of ignorance of how to play it and I can't find the info to learn... you get my drift.

[when Zalgiris 1410 says "2 guys" he means the two men of the spotter team]

Ah yes, roger that stoat. I'll also try your suggestion about the best place to observe from. Thanks.

Zalgiris, great pics! Thanks for doing that. I also have a mortar team with me so it's still very helpful, thanks a lot!

Now to sit down and try this stuff out! Thanks again guys you've been a big help!

[Zalgiris 1410]

You might be wrong to the degree that you imply that you think CM "may not be "realistic" but [that] this is a game for bloody sake! I want to be entertained, not frustrated."

The fun factor goes up as you learn from your CM playing knowldge and understand and solve the frustration of the realisticallity of CM, IME.

It is certainly much more entertaining than any click feast, I'm with you on that score Avartar13. It's because of the WEGO system. (I suspect that you are a Germanophile given your board name, no?)

[Avatar13]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

You might be wrong to the degree that you imply that you think CM "may not be "realistic" but [that] this is a game for bloody sake! I want to be entertained, not frustrated."

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was putting down CM in any way. All I meant by that is using turns and pausing is not realistic. Sure can't do that in real life! Yes, CM is very realistic in what it is portraying from what little I've seen thus far.

The fun factor goes up as you learn from your CM playing knowldge and understand and solve the frustration of the realisticallity of CM, IME.

Again, my frustration was only due to my ignorance of what the units actually do and how to properly use them. The readme gives some clues but not to the level of detail I was looking for. I hope that the manual will help fill in where needed.

(I suspect that you are a Germanophile given your board name, no?)

Germanophile? Nah, not at all. How does "Avatar" appear to be Germanophile-like? I just tried the German side first as it appeared to me, after reading the mission, that it should be easier to do than the Allied side for a first try to get the feel of the game. Though I still got my butt kicked big time. Can't wait to see what they do to me once I try playing American!

Reading stuff here, and once I get the manual, reading that I hope to have a better handle on tactics and proper usage of the units and that's a good thing.

BTW, the artillery tips worked great! Didn't hit my first target though, he just moved forward out of the area, the little bugger. But my spotter then noticed some other targets farther down field so I ordered him to target that area and started to send the tanks in, that kept the targets busy until the area got peppered with 105mm shells and took out a few things! Was very cool to watch.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Sorry Avatar13, I appologise for appearing to put you on the spot about the realism factor. Thanks for explaining what you meant exactly (1 minute WEGO system turns & paused planning etc) and I am completely with you on this, but then again after all it is a PC simulation wargame.

I was really just trying to help sell you on the game by assuring you that, as I expect judging by your eloquence, you will learn to solve your CM playing problems and avoid such frustrations after gaining experience, though may be from some mistakes! I did this 'cos you are only playing the demo. It is both a complicated simulation wargame which deals with things as realistically as it does which is difficult to master as well.

I also but very sincerely apologise for mistaking you for a Germanophile going by nothing more than your board callsign name Avatar13. Sorry I was trying to make sense of it. I thought that it was somekind of ironic dig at Aryan mysticism or the Thule Society occultism etc. Why else would a wargamer employ such a Hinduistic term?

(OK may be it really really was just me that got the punch line!)

[Avatar13]

Zalgiris, no need to apologize mate! I wasn't exactly crystal clear in what I was trying to say.

Don't worry about selling me on the game, now that I got a little bit of knowledge about how things work, thanks to you and the other helpful folks here, I have already placed an order. Looked for it at the local Gamestop yesterday but no one around here has it in stock so I ordered from their site. ($19.99US is a steal!) I also played and finished the mission again and kicked major butt! Now to try the Allied side and see how they hand it back to me. (or should I say see how they bugger my butt? )

I also but very sincerely apologise for mistaking you for a Germanophile going by nothing more than your board callsign name Avatar13. Sorry I was trying to make sense of it. I thought that it was somekind of ironic dig at Aryan mysticism or the Thule Society occultism etc. Why else would a wargamer employ such a Hinduistic term?

Again, no need to apologize at all. My, you really did dig deep to come up with that association didn't you? At least you got the Indian connection, most folks I know only think of its more current/common use of being an anonymous moniker.

[Zalgiris 1410]

I have no need to worry about having caused myself some bad karma then, cool Avatar13. :cool: Enjoy your CMAK Samsara!

BTW I suspect that your moniker means Incarnate#13, how's that? :eek:

It wasn't so much that I had to do any digging, it was more a case of me making a totally long streatched link of some astranged kind because of my eclectic interest in curiosities and a habit of making associations between them.

Weird hey? :confused:

BTW when we did some comparative studies as part of our compulsory religion classes (I went to a Catholic High School - they're hell bent for Liedenhosen on that subject) we made a little pun on Bhagavadgita - Bugger-the-guitar. Hehe, I had a few mates in grundgy bands and I think that it was tossed around as an idea for a band name. This was just before Nirvana...they were beaten to a comercial break through Hinduistic band name...what a shame!

[ October 17, 2005, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Avatar13]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

I have no need to worry about having caused myself some bad karma then, cool Avatar13. Enjoy your CMAK Samsara!

Hehe, thanks. I am enjoying it a lot!

BTW I suspect that your moniker means Incarnate#13, how's that?

Well, I couldn't use just plain Avatar (which I've used for about 13 years online now and chose because of a self-development course I took many years ago by the same name, plus with its' Indian connections I've always liked it ) as that had been taken by someone else (usually is... ) so I added 13 to it which is my favorite number. Yes, I'm weird, I know.

It wasn't so much that I had to do any digging, it was more a case of me making a totally long streatched link of some astranged kind because of my eclectic interest in curiosities and a habit of making associations between them.

By digging I meant exactly what you said, "a totally long stretched link" not so much that you necessarily had to think long and hard about it. You obviously have a quick wit about you and a sense of humor. A great combination in my book!

Weird hey?

Hey, weird is good!

BTW when we did some comparative studies as part of our compulsory religion classes (I went to a Catholic High School - they're hell bent for Liedenhosen on that subject) we made a little pun on Bhagavadgita - Bugger-the-guitar. Hehe, I had a few mates in grundgy bands and I think that it was tossed around as an idea for a band name. This was just before Nirvana...they were beaten to a comercial break through Hinduistic band name...what a shame!

Hehe, wouldn't you know it that someone beat ya to the punch in getting that catchy/mystical-like band name. There's no justice in this world!

[Avatar13]

Well I just got through trying out the Allied side of this mission. It was fun but I was surprised at how well I did! True, with some of your help, I now have a little bit of a working knowledge about the game and its units and how to use them some but I didn't think I'd do so well my first time out trying the Allied side, especially after the difficult time I had doing the Axis first time around. Took me a good 4-5 tries to win that one!

I think I read somewhere here that one or more of you felt/feel that the game may be slightly tilted toward the Allies. Not sure if my attempt is anything to go on but reading the brief I had the impression that the Germans were able to easily run over the Allies in this mission. As I said, I had a tough time playing the Germans but found it pretty easy playing the Americans. Fortunately, you can tweak the heck out of this game to make it harder or easier on yourself but I'll have to play some more (especially once my copy arrives!!) to really get a feel for this. It could also just be the mission I chose to play that may be like this. What say you guys?

[stoat]

Once you know what you are doing, it can be won from either side fairly easily. However it is, in my opinion, easier to win from the Allied side, especially if you are just starting out. A nice size attack in fairly open terrain is not the easiest task when you are just starting out. The fact that the Germans only have Pz IIIs doesn't hurt either.

[Avatar13]

Originally posted by stoat:

Once you know what you are doing, it can be won from either side fairly easily.

Well, I still wouldn't go so far as to say I know what I'm doing... But hopefully I'm getting closer.

However it is, in my opinion, easier to win from the Allied side, especially if you are just starting out. A nice size attack in fairly open terrain is not the easiest task when you are just starting out. The fact that the Germans only have Pz IIIs doesn't hurt either.

Roger that stoat, I was surprised the first time I played the Germans. I started saying "where's my tigers! I want some Tigers!" Despite not having them, I was still surprised how relatively easy it was for the inferior numbered American tanks to deal with them. I still had 5 that survived to 3 of theirs once I was declared the winner. Not bad for the 5th time I've ever played this. Looking forward to trying out the other mission in the demo now.

Why does "real life" always get in the way of my gaming?