Dandelion Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Hi all This picture from the Trailblazer homepage displays troops of the 70th crossing the Saar. What caught my attention was the rearmost man to the right. What kind of jacket is he wearing? I haven't seen any hooded US ones of this cut before. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Reversible German parkas were popular among Allied troops, though I would think they were not often worn in the front lines. I have seen photos of linemen of the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals wearing them with divisional insignia on the sleeves. I've seen other photos of Americans wearing German kit also. It wasn't unheard of, and the German parkas were really well made. I own a repro of one myself. They came in grey-white in addition to camo, so if you had a plain one, you probably wouldn't be in too much danger by wearing one. There were hooded jackets worn by US troops also, I believe an anorak and a fur lined parka; these went to the mountain units like 10th Mountain and the First Special Service Force. [ June 29, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted June 29, 2003 Author Share Posted June 29, 2003 Yes it looks rather like the German mountain parka, in the cut and in the ...whats-it-called-in-english thing around the high waistline. But it appears a little "sloppy", the material looks a little too soft for a German parka. Maybe it becomes softer after much wear. Also, it has shoulderboards. Of course, he could have put those on himself, but as the US troops didn't (?) wear anything on field jacket shoulderboards I don't see why. Regards Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roach Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 As far as I can see, this looks very much like an ordinary M43 combat jacket, with the hood attached. Made from the same material as the combat jacket, the hood buttons under the collar and also to the epaulettes, and is designed to fit over the helmet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 It does seem a little lightweight around the ass to be a German one (though they made unpadded versions of the reversible parka too). I didn't realize the M43 came with a hood; I take it they weren't very popular? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roach Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Indeed, not very popular at all. They are thin, basically a single layer of the M43 combat jacket material, and not particularly waterproof - hence not much practical use (although you do occasionally see them in photos), and therefore not greatly appreciated as the finest piece of wet weather gear in the world. I suspect (but am quite possibly wrong!) that they were a bit of an afterthought. Mint examples used to be available ten-a-penny a few years back (and probably still are), so it seems quite likely that they were not on general issue until very late on, with the surplus stock becoming exactly that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roach Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Actually, they probably weren't an afterthought at all (so I was wrong!) otherwise the M43 combat jacket wouldn't have had the buttons under the collar to start with. So, in fact, just an ineffective piece of wet weather gear after all! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 Aha. Didn't know about the M43 hood either. Sounds like a good idea as such, and a modern-ish solution. I guess they eventually developed better material for it. Well it could well be the angle and motion of the soldier only. The cut looks a little strange also I think, but maybe its just an illusion from the photograph. Isn't it a bit tight over the youknowwhat, and a bit short, for an American jacket? Was the M43 not open in the front? Or did it have a button at the bottom, frontside? The cut here looks almost like the French Chasseur Alpin jacket of 1940. The thingy there around his waist (more like around his ribs really), were those on all M43? I'd explain exactly what I mean if I knew the English word for it But its the ribbon-ish thingy just above his webbing combat belt, usually sewn in to get a body-fit on lightwieght material jackets, so as to not make the jacket baggy in the middle so to speak. In modern jackets/parkas they're often of elastic material, or regulatable by cord. Or both. The Germans had one on their mountain parkas too, being modelled on prewar ski-sports parkas as they were. If you know what I mean, please share the English word for it Regards Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Drawstring waist is the term, I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roach Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Yes, drawstring waist it is. The cord drawstring was internal (which is probably the nature of drawstrings) and was standard on the M43. There were/are six concealed buttons for fastening at the front (no zipper), from the neck right to the bottom. I think that like most uniform jackets, they can ride a little high, or a little low depending on the individual and how well fitting his issued jacket was. For what it's worth, there was also a fur-lined liner jacket available for winter conditions that was to be worn in conjunction with and underneath the M43 combat jacket. This was not unlike the winter combat jacket (tanker's jacket) in some respects of its design, but instead of a zip for fastening the jacket, it had six buttons that attached through sewn-on cord loops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 While I have your attention, I'd also like to ask about the man immediately in front of the trooper we have been discussing. His visible elbow seems to have a square shape protruding around it, as if padded. Were there such pads sewn in to the M43? If so, anyplace else than elbow? Finally, he has a strange white line on his helmet. So has a man further up ahead in the column, though different shape, and I can't identify any of them as any rank. I am familiar with paratroops painting ranks in white at the back of helmets, and some units wearing unit formation signs on the left of the helmet, but this looks like something else? What is that? Regards Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petes-24 Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Originally posted by Dandelion: Finally, he has a strange white line on his helmet. So has a man further up ahead in the column, though different shape, and I can't identify any of them as any rank. I am familiar with paratroops painting ranks in white at the back of helmets, and some units wearing unit formation signs on the left of the helmet, but this looks like something else? What is that? If I follow you correctly, my understanding is that a vertical bar on the helmet indicated an officer (I had always assumed that it meant Lt., but now gather that it was Capt. etc. as well) and a horizontal bar on the helmet indicated a non-commisioned officer (e.g., seargant). Peter 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roach Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 As the last gentleman has already said, the horizontal bars indicate all NCO ranks, while the vertical bar indicates all officer ranks - this was true for all army units and not just the paratroops. I'm fairly sure there was a regulation length for them, but I feel just as certain that there were variations - hence the apparently much shorter stripe on the man at the front. As for the apparent padding, the M43 jacket was not produced with any kind of sewn in pads. I think that this picture, as you say, merely 'seems' to be padded. The square effect might be caused by a quick in the field patch repair (DIY padding of a sort I guess), or even due to a rolled up sweater or shirt sleeve underneath. Or maybe even a handy elbow-sized piece of loot! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted June 30, 2003 Author Share Posted June 30, 2003 I see, I had it all wrong there. I thought they actually painted the rank insignia as such on their helmets. So I've always thought that any guy I saw on a picture with one bar on his helmet had to be a (1st) Lt Well now that I have you people here I might as well take full advantage of it and add a question - the symbols/markings sometimes painted on the side of helmets (we see it for example in the Band of Brothers series), which level of unit did they represent? (Btl, Rgt, Div etc). Regards Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Originally posted by Dandelion: I see, I had it all wrong there. I thought they actually painted the rank insignia as such on their helmets. So I've always thought that any guy I saw on a picture with one bar on his helmet had to be a (1st) Lt Well now that I have you people here I might as well take full advantage of it and add a question - the symbols/markings sometimes painted on the side of helmets (we see it for example in the Band of Brothers series), which level of unit did they represent? (Btl, Rgt, Div etc). Regards Dandelion Each Regiment of the 101st Airborne had its own device; then the tick marks on the outside of the playing card symbol specified battalion within the regiment (or battalion HQ IIRC). The divisional artillery had a white dot. One regiment jumped into Normandy with two battalions wearing the tick mark in the same place due to a misunderstanding of the written orders. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 http://www.sproe.com/h-helmetmarkings.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 Ah, that explains it, many thanks to you all. Does anybody know if any other allied troops used helmet markings of any kind, including ranks? This is excepting national emblems, such as the Polish ones at the front of the helmet. Also, a naïve questions but - the helmet markings (rank or unit) seem not to work well with nets or other helmet camouflage. Didn't at least the paras use helmet nets? Regards Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 The British and Canadians had an extensive set of helmet markings in WW II; much research to be done on them. Generally specific to individual battalions, and yes, the net did cover them up. In World War One, helmet flashes were tactical in nature - a line of khaki going forward was hard to keep direction with, so units started sewing divisional flashes to the back of the tunic, just under the collar. The Canadians sewed theirs to their sleeves beginning in 1916; a rectangle denoted the division (red, blue, French Grey, Green for 1, 2, 3 or 4 Div) surmounted by a coloured shape. The colour of the shape identified the brigade (red, blue, green for senior/intermediate/junior brigade and the shape identified seniority within the brigade (square, circle, triangle, semi-circle). Later, they moved the markings to the helmet, sometimes the rear, sometimes the side. The Canadians started painting cap badges on their helmets, on the front, often in the colour of the divisional patch. In WW II, these tactical symbols were not used, though the Second Canadian Division did readopt them between 1941 and Dieppe. Some units painted them on their helmets, ie the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. Most others, including in the other overseas divisions, adopted more regimental-type markings for the helmet - Calgary Highlanders - red/white/red dicing 3 x 3 to emulate the glengarry Regiment de Maisonneuve - a white fleur de lys Seaforth Highlanders - a cap badge on tartan backing 48th Highlanders - a falcon's head, in different colours according to company Black Watch (RHR) of Canada - red hackle le Regiment de la Chaudiere - rectangular flash in regimental colours maroon and red, divided diagonally by a white stripe Royal Winnipeg Rifles - Little Black Devil device Royal Montreal Regiment - cap badge on flash of regimental colours blue/old gold/red Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment - three vertical stripes of blue/old gold/blue (regimental colours). Regina Rifle Regiment - cap badge in regimental colours Canadian Scottish Regiment - Third Division patch with their World War One cap badge (16th Battalion) on it. These were usually worn on the left side of the helmet, sometimes on both, and were not for tactical purposes. Hence, no bother when the net covered them. It was a morale thing, and started in about 1941. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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