Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 gah - I'll just Google it. JonS- thanks for the tip. I am using my European Theater of War map and Google. I'll post my results later for confirmation.... [ October 20, 2003, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Lybia = Italy Tunisia = Vichy France Palestine = Britain Iraq = Britain British Somaliland = Britain then Italy then Britain (not sure of dates) Italian Somaliland = Italy then Britain (not sure of dates, but roughly the same as previous) Abyssinia and Eritreia = Italy then Britain (not sure of dates, but roughly the same as previous) [ October 20, 2003, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 OK, Belgian Congo still confuses me. Can I properly mark them as neutral? Nothing on google indicates that control ever fell from the Belgians, even with Belgium occupied by Germany. They tend to go from colonization right to independence in 1960 without having mentioned much else. World War II marks a watershed in the history of the Belgian colony. Profound social and economic changes stirred up the collective consciousness of Africans both in the rural and urban sectors. The heavy demands made upon the rural milieus by the war effort accelerated the flow of migrants to the towns’ a new class of educated, French-speaking Africans called évolués came into being, increasingly vocal in their demands for reforms; and the frequency of labor disputes and strikes in the industrial centers of Katanga Province drew attention to the changing attitude of African mine workers. Nor were the changes limited to the domestic arena. Anticolonial sentiment was quickly emerging as a fundamental reality of the international scene, and the United Nations (UN) was becoming a major forum for promoting the aspirations of the colonized. No longer could the Belgian Congo be kept in a state of splendid isolation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Didn't the Belgian Govt evacuate to London more-or-less intact, and carry on the fight from there (i.e., they didn't surrender)? If that was the case, then I would expect that the resources of the BC - such as they were - were activly engaged on the Allied side. I think some of the men for the ?Princess Irene Bde? came from there. Also, thinking without a map handy here, wasn't Takoradi - the Atlantic terminus of the overland air-route to Cairo - in the BC? Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Okay, this is what I've come up with - if someone can ID the white area on the map, I'd be grateful. Aden is on the other side of the Red Sea, yes? Leopold, King of the Belgians did go to the UK; don't know about the govt. but it is likely. Don't know how that effected the Belgian Congo, though. Iraq and Persia (Iran) had pro-Axis governments at the start of 1941, until they were removed by the British. I am looking off of two sources, one has Beirut as seperate and the other as a part of Syria. Which is correct? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Okay, this is what I've come up with - if someone can ID the white area on the map, I'd be grateful.That's Djibouti or French Somaliland. It was nominally under Vichy control, but like Syria they were "coöperating" with Italy. Aden is on the other side of the Red Sea, yes?Right. The bottom corner of the Arabian Penninsula on your map. Color it red. Leopold, King of the Belgians did go to the UK...Wrong. He remained in Belgium as the "guest" of the Nazis. ...don't know about the govt. but it is likely.Yes, they went to UK and formed a government in exile. I think they even went so far as to repudiate the King, who was forced to abdicate after the war, but I am hazy on the details. Don't know how that effected the Belgian Congo, though.I'm not sure either, but ISTR reading that the administration there was not helpful to the Allied cause. The Belgian Congo did however supply much of the uranium ore that went into the Atom Bombs. I am looking off of two sources, one has Beirut as seperate and the other as a part of Syria. Which is correct? Ethnically and religiously Lebanon was seperate, but it was administered (ye gods, I can't believe I wrote "administrated"; shades of Shrub; yuck!) as an indivisible part of the Syrian Mandate of France. HTH Michael [ October 20, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Indeed it does, thanks. I have a photo of Leopold of the Belgians in British uniform...no idea when it was taken, or if there was more than one Leopold...(?) I shall find it and see if I can figure out what the hell I'm talking about. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: ...wasn't Takoradi - the Atlantic terminus of the overland air-route to Cairo - in the BC?No, it was in Ghana, a British possession that Michael mistakenly has colored as neutral/independent. BTW, the map of West Africa is much more complex than Michael shows. Especially along the coast it tends to be alternating British and French possessions with the odd Spanish colony thrown in for color. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS: ...wasn't Takoradi - the Atlantic terminus of the overland air-route to Cairo - in the BC?No, it was in Ghana, a British possession that Michael mistakenly has colored as neutral/independent. BTW, the map of West Africa is much more complex than Michael shows. Especially along the coast it tends to be alternating British and French possessions with the odd Spanish colony thrown in for color. Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 University of San Diego 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 But they're not in colour... Hmm, didn't the Italians take British Somaliland in August 1940? I should probably colour it grey, then, no? [ October 20, 2003, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Hmm, didn't the Italians take British Somaliland in August 1940?Right. They attacked on the 3rd. and the British had evacuated their surviving forces to Aden by the 19th. Wavell launched his counter-offensive on Jan. 19th. of 1941. The Italians officially surrendered in Ethiopia on May 19th. but resistence did not entirely cease until Nov. 27th. Those who believe that the Italians were never steadfast fighters should ponder that last date. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Strangely enough, I happen to be reading Susan Travers' (only woman to serve in the legion etrangere) auto-bio right now, and she has some info on this subject. She was with the Free French expedition to take Dakar in Sept 1940. After that was repulsed, they (DeGaulle and the FF troops), went to Sierra Leone, French Cammeroon, Gabon, and then the Republic of Congo. She spent about a month in Brazzaville, where she said, the colons were pro-Vichy, but she never mentions the FF troops or their British liasons having any problems. From this, I would assume that Congo was, defacto, on the Allied side from about Oct 1940. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: But they're not in colour...Check THIS out! A Political Map of Africa Showing International Boundaries and Railways. Published by the Geographical Section, British War Office, 1914. Revised, 1940, reprinted 1941. In glorious technocolor! With zoom feature! Ohhhh --- I loves me some maps... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by von Lucke: A Political Map of Africa Showing International Boundaries and Railways. Published by the Geographical Section, British War Office, 1914. Revised, 1940, reprinted 1941. In glorious technocolor! With zoom feature! Ohhhh --- I loves me some maps... Outstanding find, von Lucke! A little short on geophysical detail here and there, but a good choice for what Michael is looking for. One thing I noticed is on this map Ghana is called by its earlier name, the Gold Coast, which I think was still in general use during the war. Takoradi shows up clearly. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Just a question, but what does the Belgian Congo have to do with the Mediterranean? I mean, a thousand miles of desert seem to separate the two. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Given that the legend on the map I posted said Mediterranean/North Africa/Middle East, Steve, I have a hard time taking your question seriously. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Thanks again, guys - and thanks for the great colour map, that helps a lot! Gold Coast has been coloured red (I won't use the modern name Ghana). Looks like I forgot to name Sardinia, I'll change that too... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 I have a question about Greece. In Jan. 1941 it had already been at war with Italy for two months. I'm not precisely certain of the details, but I believe it was allied to Great Britain. So, it's true that it is independent, but in a different sense from non-belligerent and neutral Yugoslavia and Turkey. So my question is, should there be a color showing independent Allies, just as there is a color for semi-independent Axis allies? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: I have a question about Greece. In Jan. 1941 it had already been at war with Italy for two months. I'm not precisely certain of the details, but I believe it was allied to Great Britain. So, it's true that it is independent, but in a different sense from non-belligerent and neutral Yugoslavia and Turkey. So my question is, should there be a color showing independent Allies, just as there is a color for semi-independent Axis allies? Michael That's something I also struggled with. And then there are the mildly pro-Axis neutrals like Spain and Turkey, should they get a different colour than Portugal? etc.... I wasn't aware of Greece's true status, but of course that did change after Hitler invaded them in the spring of 41... The Soviet Union at this time could also be called an ally of Germany, but not really.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Mike, in the last two you've changed the colour of Iran (Persia?) rther than Iraq. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Given that the legend on the map I posted said Mediterranean/North Africa/Middle East, Steve, I have a hard time taking your question seriously. Michael, I was just going by your initial post as currently amended, and your thread title. I didn't see how, based on the (lack of) information in that first post and the thread title dealing with control of the Med (which I initially took as naval control, but then realized you must be talking about the lands bordering on the Med) the Belgian Congo related. Frankly I still don't. Perhaps you should have titled this thread "Who controlled these North and Central African nations and other nearby lands in January 1941". Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: Mike, in the last two you've changed the colour of Iran (Persia?) rther than Iraq. Yes. Iran was directly invaded by the British (with Russian help - they actually linked up their forces in Persia). Iraq, on the other hand, had a pro-Axis revolt in April 41 (?) that was pretty much put down by the end of May, with a pro-Allied government returned. I've kept them as neutrals/independent since I'm not yet sure how long the British actually maintained a garrison there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 21, 2003 Author Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by MrSpkr: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Given that the legend on the map I posted said Mediterranean/North Africa/Middle East, Steve, I have a hard time taking your question seriously. Michael, I was just going by your initial post as currently amended, and your thread title. I didn't see how, based on the (lack of) information in that first post and the thread title dealing with control of the Med (which I initially took as naval control, but then realized you must be talking about the lands bordering on the Med) the Belgian Congo related. Frankly I still don't. Perhaps you should have titled this thread "Who controlled these North and Central African nations and other nearby lands in January 1941". Steve </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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