Blah Blah Blah Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I play with extreme fog of war. I noticed that Wooden Pill Box's disappear! Whilst I can undertsand this for troops, a pill box is there to stay and should not disapear from view, or at least whilst you have troops in the area that do know that it is there. As it is now, even with troops in the arear who have fire upon it, been shot at from it, it still can disappear from view within 1-2 minutes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 You need to use a bit more imagination. When a fixed object like a pillbox disappears, it just means that your men have ducked down out of sight of it. This is a quite healthy reation on their part, seeing as how they don't want to get shot by the pillbox. Couple that with camouflage, and you end up with "there's a pillbox over there, but it's hidden from view by these bushes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Pillboxes and bunkers were generally low to the ground and often were well camouflaged. At a distance, if you didn't see muzzle flashes you might lose sight of it altogether. At what range are your troops? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah Blah Blah Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 My troops were within 100m of the Wooden Pill box. It was 'A Mountain Retreat' and the pill box on the left hand side of the map as you enter the town/city. I had my men move from the trees around into the vineyard. I had a sherman and an machine gun on the ridge near the road. There were some exchanges, then it all went quit. Then the pill box eventually disappeard. Even though not in direct line of site for most of the chaps, the sherman was minus the leader, the chaps are not going to forget that it is there. So whilst they are within the vicinity, the pill box should not disappear, like such items as road blocks and as far as I know trenches. Do destroyed pill box's disappear? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Originally posted by Blah Blah Blah: ...the chaps are not going to forget that it is there.They didn't forget. There was a "last seen" marker, wasn't there? You could have targetted that with area fire. I've done that before. They just couldn't see it well enough to aim precisely at it. What time of day does this scenario take place? What are the weather conditions. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah Blah Blah Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 I tested the visibilty of the wooden pillar box. I have serious concerns at what occured. Firstly I tested it with a mad tank rush to get there and in quick time.... The tanks were no more than 10 metres of the bunker could not see it as it had not fired. There is no way known you can hid a bunker that well. Once I got a tank within 9 metres they destroyed the bunker. Once destroyed, I moved the tanks out of site, about 100 metres around the corner, the bunker for 30+ turns appeared as a bunker icon. Second test involved not wanting to kill the bunker, so I sent the HQ's. Once seen I then moved the men away from the line of site of the bunker, istantly (well in less than 2 minutes) it was a last seen icon. The two instances mean that the time of day does not count. Yes the last seen icon was there. Whilst the last seen icon is appropriate for troops, I feel that large unmovable objects such bunkers should not 'disappear' with a last seen icon. It is not going anywhere! The visibilty of first spotting a bunker also need to be addressed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Why do you think a low, camouflaged structure should be easier to see? Clearly if you have enough time to build the bunker in the first place, you also have enough time to take care to hide it well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Originally posted by Blah Blah Blah: I tested the visibilty of the wooden pillar box. I have serious concerns at what occured. Firstly I tested it with a mad tank rush to get there and in quick time.... The tanks were no more than 10 metres of the bunker could not see it as it had not fired. There is no way known you can hid a bunker that well.And on what do you base this belief? For instance, on Tarawa and other locations in the Pacific, the Japanese built palm log bunkers that Marines on foot could not spot until they were less than 10 meters from them. And they were on foot. It's a lot harder to spot from tanks, especially tanks trying to go fast. Once I got a tank within 9 metres they destroyed the bunker. Once destroyed, I moved the tanks out of site, about 100 metres around the corner, the bunker for 30+ turns appeared as a bunker icon.Not surprising. Once a bunker has been destroyed, I would expect its camouflage to be somewhat mussed. Second test involved not wanting to kill the bunker, so I sent the HQ's. Once seen I then moved the men away from the line of site of the bunker, istantly (well in less than 2 minutes) it was a last seen icon.So, in this case the bunker was not destroyed and its camouflage not disturbed? The two instances mean that the time of day does not count.You ran tests in all times of day then? Yes the last seen icon was there. Whilst the last seen icon is appropriate for troops, I feel that large unmovable objects such bunkers should not 'disappear' with a last seen icon. It is not going anywhere! As I tried patiently to explain to you earlier, the bunker doesn't need to "go anywhere" for troops to lose sight of it. While there may or may not be a problem, you haven't yet proven your case with anything you have posted here. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteppenWolf Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I would mostly see it as a problem when the last seen mark disapears after a while because I guess troops that spooted a bunker pretty well will remember the general area of where it was. And a bunker is not gonna run away. With loosing exact aiming sight I can agree with considering that most stuff was actually hidden and hard to spot in the real world... Even if they look like they're not camoulflaged at all in the CM graphics... In CM the only thing they could do to make it look less hidden is to paint the wooden structure in pink and write shoot me in bright yellow letters on it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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