CW Lorried Infantry Bdes

[JonS]

In the standard pattern, a CW Armd Div in 1944/45 consisted of an armoured bde and an infantry bde.

The armd bde in turn consisted of three armd regts, and a motor bn (with it's own very distinctive org).

The inf bde consisted of three rifle bns, nominally orgged the same way as any of those from a inf div. Now, my question is did these inf bns in the inf bde of an armd div have their own trucks? I sometimes see them referred to as "lorried inf bdes" which implies that they had their own tpt, but it isn't really clear that they did. For an inf div it's fairly clear - the inf bns had a lot of integral vehs, but in order to motorise the riflemen required the allocation of a trucks from a GS Tpt Coy (IIRC, a ful GS Tpt Coy was sufficient to lift a full bde).

What I don't know is wether the same process - allocating trucks from the RASC pool - was required for the inf bde of an armd div. Does anyone have a good answer to that? If it helps, I am specifically thinking of NWE, and even more specifically of the Normandy Campaign, so, the affected divs are Gds, 7th, 11th, 1st Polish, and 4th Cdn.

Cheers

Jon

[Michael Dorosh]

4th Canadian Armd Div had no extra trucks for its infantry battalions, from what I can tell. Can't speak for the British divs.

[Guest Mike]

In the NZ division transport was provided by NZASC In 1942 there were 2 mechanical transport companies, an ammo company, a petrol company and a supply company.

Each platooon in each of these companies had 30 x 3-ton lorries, and could carry the marching infantry of a rifle battalion.

Notwithstanding the distinctive titles, all were kept in a single large pool of transport and used for whatevcer purpose required them ast any given point in time.

[JonS]

Thanks Mike. Just to clarify - it is your understanding that 10th Can Inf Bde had no organic tpt sufficient to lift the riflemen.

Uh, Stalin? Armd Divs? NWE? 1944/45?

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JonS:

[snips]

Now, my question is did these inf bns in the inf bde of an armd div have their own trucks? I sometimes see them referred to as "lorried inf bdes" which implies that they had their own tpt, but it isn't really clear that they did.

I was always under the impression that an inf bde being designated "lorried" implied that it had sufficient TCVs of its own to move everyone in one lift. I can't think of an authoritative source for this, but Joslen gives the 1944-45 W/E of an armd div as containing an Armd Bde Coy and an Inf Bde Coy RASC, and a 1944-45 inf div three Inf Bde Coys. The total count of "lorries, 3-ton" is 1,309 for the armd div, but only 1,056 for the inf div. I find it very hard to imagine what could account for such a large difference between a 2-bde and a 3-bde organization if not the TCVs for the lorried inf bde. I imagine that the RASC Bde Coys were mostly doing the same job as an RLC CS Coy would do these days, hauling bullets, biscuit and beans.

That there was some important difference between a lorried inf bde and an ordinary one is indicated by the fact that Joslen mentions the dates when e.g. the Queen's Brigade changed designation from one to another.

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

Do those truck numbers include the artillery? In which case the amount of trucks available for the infantry would be even higher in the armoured division, I should guess?

All the best

Andreas

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Do those truck numbers include the artillery? In which case the amount of trucks available for the infantry would be even higher in the armoured division, I should guess?

The trouble is, "3-ton lorry" covers vehicles that will turn up all over the place, and Joseln doesn't go into detail, but I shouldn't be surprised if lots of them weren't included in the RA establishments. I expect that something over half the tonnage of supplies being lifted by the RASC would be artillery ammunition, too.

As the armd div has 2 field regts (one SP and one towed) and the inf div has 3 (all towed), the excess of 3-tonners in the armd div is, I think you'd be right to infer, caused by the inf having more MT.

All the best,

John.

[JonS]

Thanks John

Originally posted by John D Salt:

I was always under the impression that an inf bde being designated "lorried" implied that it had sufficient TCVs of its own to move everyone in one lift. I can't think of an authoritative source for this, but Joslen gives the 1944-45 W/E of an armd div as containing an Armd Bde Coy and an Inf Bde Coy RASC, and a 1944-45 inf div three Inf Bde Coys. The total count of "lorries, 3-ton" is 1,309 for the armd div, but only 1,056 for the inf div. I find it very hard to imagine what could account for such a large difference between a 2-bde and a 3-bde organization if not the TCVs for the lorried inf bde.

I'd come across reference to the Inf Bde Coy* and Armd Bde Coys RASC too, and also the apparent discrepancy in the number of 3-tonners. In fact, I've come across all sorts of circumstantial, and oblique (incl Rifleman Bowlby), evidence that the LIBs did have their own tpt, but nothing that comes right out and say "these trucks were for the inf, and nothing else."

That there was some important difference between a lorried inf bde and an ordinary one is indicated by the fact that Joslen mentions the dates when e.g. the Queen's Brigade changed designation from one to another.

I wonder if there were any other differences. This site on 7th Armd Div includes this passage specifically on LIBs:

A lorried infantry brigade was not used in the same way as a normal infantry brigade and were taken out of the line if the armoured brigade were in access elsewhere as they were not considered strong enough to hold anything.

Apart from the rather puzzling typo, it makes it sound as if the LIB was somehow light on boots or firepower or something, at least as compared to a 'normal' IB.

Regards

JonS

* The kicker is, of course, that an inf div contained three Inf Bde Coys, RASC ...

[ October 24, 2006, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by JonS:

Uh, Stalin? Armd Divs? NWE? 1944/45?

fussy fussy fussy!

OK - how about

Motor battalions in armoured brigades had about the same number of men as a 'standard' battalion but only 3 rifle companies. However, these companies had 4 platoons, 3 in 15-cwt trucks and one in carriers. They also had a large support company with 3 anti-tank platoons (each with 4 anti-tank guns) and 2 MMG platoons (each 4 MMGs) but no assault pioneers. Motor battalions had organic vehicles, most of these battalions were either Kings Royal Rifle Corps or Rifle Brigade. Motorised/lorried battalions (independent or in the infantry brigades of armoured divisions) were on the standard establishment but had dedicated troop carrying vehicles provided by RASC.

From here

[JonS]

Nope, that's no good either. As I said in my first post

The armd bde in turn consisted of three armd regts, and a motor bn (with it's own very distinctive org).

and that wasn't what I was asking about

Oh, wait. That last little bit of your post is useful

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JonS:

[snips]

I wonder if there were any other differences.

The lorried inf bde gets an independent MG coy all of its own, instead of takling a one-third share in the divisional MG bn; but that hardly seems to make much difference.

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JonS:

[snips]

I've come across all sorts of circumstantial, and oblique (incl Rifleman Bowlby), evidence that the LIBs did have their own tpt, but nothing that comes right out and say "these trucks were for the inf, and nothing else."

"Motorised/lorried battalions (independent or in the infantry brigades of armoured divisions) were on the standard establishment but had dedicated troop carrying vehicles provided by RASC."

Source: http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/Divorg.htm

...from Nigel Evans' excellent RA pages. A Gunner site might be an odd thing to consult on infantry organisation, but Gunners are just generally useful people, aren't they?

All the best,

John.

[edward_n_kelly]

Sorry to continue an old thread but could not the troop lift be provided by the RASC (and Commonwealth equivalents) which, when not used by the infantry, could be put at the disposal of the ADD(Tpt) for other tasks ?

Therefore the lorries would not be organic to the battalion but held at Brigade or Division though normally tasked to support their respective battalions ?

Cheers

Edward

[Andreas]

From reading 'With the Jocks' it appears that there was a permanent link between units and transportation. White refers to 'his' driver when they moved by TCV, since he was carried around by the same driver/truck repeatedly until the vehicle gets hit outside Bremen.

All the best

Andreas