Discovered another way the AI "cheats"

[SteveP]

Topic title is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I do find these little deviations from BFC's insistence that the AI plays the game exactly like we do to be amusing.

In this case, the "cheat" has to do with setup in those scenarios in which one side has units that start outside of a setup zone -- that is, they are in the neutral area of the map (though I can think of one instance where the scenario designer actually put a minefield in the opponents setup zone). I am not talking about TRPs here, but minefields, wire, the odd team, etc. As a player, you have only two options with these units: leave them where the scenario designer put them, or place them somewhere in your setup zone. You cannot move them to another location in the neutral zone. However, the AI can and does move such units around in the neutral zone. Don't know if this is also true in Operations, where units can be stranded in the neutral zone after a battle, but it might be true there as well.

Not all that important from a play standpoint, so this is really just for those like me who find these things interesting. Also useful for scenario designers to know, I suppose.

[Philippe]

Can you be a little more explicit about the name of the scenario where this happened to you?

And are you quite sure that when the AI opponent sets up in different locations in the neutral zone the game was actually set to 'stick to scenario default'? When the FOW is set to extreme you can't always be sure you're really seeing what you think you're seeing.

I've often wondered what happens when you play a scenario against an AI's forces that are set up in organizational groupings rather than in combat deployment. Some scenarios should only be played against a live opponent.

[SteveP]

Has nothing to do with FOW. Sorry I wasn't clear on one point: this can only happen when the AI is free to set up. It's easy to tell how the AI has chosen to do a set up in these situations. Simply do a surrender at the beginning of turn one, and then investigate the map. You can see everything except what the AI may have done with any TRPs. It's a good way to work on the design of a scenario that allows for freeing the AI during setup.

This does not happen with QBs because all of the forces are automatically placed in setup zones to start, and apparently even the AI can't move something from a setup zone into the neutral zone.

[Philippe]

Not sure I follow you.

By definition, 'free to set up' has to produce very different results from 'stick to scenario default'. Many scenario designers will mention that their work should be played on default, not free settings.

Are you saying that 'stick to default' setups produce variant results? I think the reason that the free set-ups scramble things around the way they do is so that you can replay a scenario without being sure you'll always know where everything is. It's not an issue with QB's because you don't or (can't)usually replay them.

I was under the impression that if you played human setup vs. scenario default you would get a level playing field (as far as setup goes), or at least what the designer intended (which may not be the same thing). But it would be very similar to a human vs. human setup (apart from different deployment decisions and philosophies).

[SteveP]

Re-read these two sentences:

"As a player, you have only two options with these units: leave them where the scenario designer put them, or place them somewhere in your setup zone. You cannot move them to another location in the neutral zone. However, the AI can and does move such units around in the neutral zone."

In order words, during set up you have only two choices of where to place a unit that the scenario designer placed in the neutral zone. The AI has three choices. The third choice is that it can place the unit in a different spot in the neutral zone.

Clear?

[Philippe]

I think you're missing my point.

You're supposed to use the default setup. And if you do, AI-controlled units in the neutral zone should be limited to what would have been there if you were playing that side. If you choose not to use the default setup you're intentionally telling the AI to roll its own version of the scenario, and all bets are off.

Different units in the neutral zone are small beer compared to what else might happen with free setup. It's not an AI cheat, it's there to keep an overplayed scenario from getting too stale. It's a way of scrambling up your AI opponent's setup so you'll still be surprised if you've played that particular scenario too many times. And it's probably there because the designers didn't anticipate over a thousand different scenarios getting written for each of the three games.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, and mention the name of the scenario you were talking about in the first place.

[SteveP]

OK, I get it. You took my use of the word "cheat" seriously. I probably deserved that. In reality, it's probably more of a bug, since I don't think BFC intended this, and most of the time it does not improve things for the AI.

I am interested in what the AI does when free to setup, because that's how you make an interesting map worth playing on multiple times. The fact that the AI screws up this particular option is worth knowing for that reason. Other than that, it's just info for people like me who like knowing some of the details of who CM works.