Tanks vs infantry in buildings

[derb]

Just an impression but does anyone else think tanks should be more effective than they are against infantry in buildings - especially "light" buildings? It's hard to visualise even well-built wooden buildings standing up to a > 37mm HE shell. Not that a single shell would destroy the building but I would expect the room targeted to be blown up and people in adjacent rooms to be substantially shaken - if < 50mm - or injured through internal walls being blown down. And how hard is it to hit, say, a room in a building where fire is coming from - or even an adjacent room - compared to hitting a tank at the same distance?

Moreover, troops in a house are more likely to be bunched in rooms and/or by windows than troops in a forest, no - and therefore more likely to be killed by a shell that gets through?

Just wondering therefore how, for example, troops in a light building - from memory - can get fired on by 75mm from c. 300m 4 or 5 times without the building collapsing and/or the people inside being killed by falling internal walls, shrapnel etc?

[Tigrii]

Originally posted by derb:

Just wondering therefore how, for example, troops in a light building - from memory - can get fired on by 75mm from c. 300m 4 or 5 times without the building collapsing and/or the people inside being killed by falling internal walls, shrapnel etc?

If 4-5 75mm shells hit a light building, it should definitely collapse into rubble, therefore causing the high casualties you expect. I don't know why the shells didn't do the trick; are you sure it was that many?

[Ubertracker]

BOOM!

"What was that loud noise Comrade General?"

"That was the German guns firing on us again, Vassily."

"But where is the explosion? The Germans have such good gunners. Are we that difficult to spot?"

"Not at all, Vassily. They see us quite well."

"Then why is it, Comrade General, that we are still alive inside this wooden house when their guns are firing at us?"

"Well, Vassily, it would appear that the German shells are simply passing through our windows on one side and out the windows on the other side."

"Ah! Thank you, Comrade General. Comrade Stalin has again anticipated the enemy."

"Yes, Vassily, our Little Father obviously planned our buildings to accomodate the passage of such shells through them harmlessly."

"One can only marvel at his foresight."

"Exactly Vassily. Now pass me that radio. We must advance against those tanks."

[Bruno Weiss]

I don't have any problem destroying light buildings with 75mm guns. I target a building with a T-34 or MkIV, and about the third shot maybe forth sometimes, the building explodes.

[CombinedArms]

75mm will kill a light building pretty fast...as mentioned, 4-5 shots on a small one. But the original poster seemed to feel that 37mm should also be quickly fatal to light buildings. They aren't in CM, and I doubt that they were in real life. To kill any kind of building reliably in CMBO or CMBB, you need to have 75mm or up.

[JasonC]

A little test. The Germans get 6 regular HMG 34 teams, one at the end of each of 6 "firing lanes". They are in, respectively, a small hut, a small wood building, tall wood on second floor, small stone, large stone (full block, second floor), and a church (second floor). All are off hide, no arcs, set to fire down the lanes at anything they can hurt.

At the end of each lane, 350m away or so in 40m of scattered trees, the Russians have a platoon of regular infantry. 250m from each building, they also have a T-70 light tank, with its 45mm main gun, blast rating a mere 14. The lanes are seperated by long line lines of tall pines, while the rest of the lanes are steppe.

At "go", one squad from each platoon steps out at a walk, "move", toward the houses. The rest of the platoons overwatch. The T-70s are buttoned (1 man turrets). So what immediately happens?

Of course the MGs open up and pin the point squads from each platoon. Interestingly enough, the MGs are not located in response. Only "sound contacts" appear. 250 yards is too far for the tanks alone to see the MG, and the platoons are over 300 yards away. The point squads make it less than 50 yards, and there is no reply fire.

Try more eyes first. A second squad from each goes forward, while the 2 "H" squads in each platoon (2 LMGs each) continue to overwatch, along with the HQs. Same result. They make it a little farther because the HMGs can't spend as much time on each one. The best advance about 100 yards, but all go to ground. No HMG positions are IDed.

Try "move to contact" with the rest of the platoons. They get to the edge of the trees, draw fire almost immediately on stepping into the open, and go to ground. They don't get cut up so bad, but don't make it anywhere, either. Nor are any of the shooters located.

Try "move" with the whole platoon, with the T-70s unbuttoned. They make some creeping progress as each squad is left alone for a bit before receiving "its" HMG's attentions. The extra targets spread the MG fire around enough (the men are well spread, side to side and front to back) so that most just go to ground, and panics are rare. But that is all that is accomplished. No HMGs are located, even with more lookers, more people being shot at, and the T-70s unbuttoned. The men are hung up 50-100 yards from their start line.

Now, the actual solution - have each T-70 "area fire", "yes" to "use main gun?", at the middle of the building in its lane, with its little 45mm pop-gun, all of 14 blast. What happens?

The HMG in the hut is pinned in 6 seconds, and remains pinned at the end of the minute. The one in the light wood building is pinned in 17 seconds, and by the end of the turn has lost a man and routed. The one in the tall wood building pins in 30 seconds, and is in panic, down 2 men, at the minute mark. All in wood thus pinned, average loss 1 man, 2/3rds panic or worse.

Things are only moderately better in the heavy buildings. 2/3 pinned, in 40 and 45 seconds - the one in the church did not, though it suffered a jam instead. One man was lost in the tall heavy building, so average 1/3 man hit. 2/3rd end the minute pinned, and thanks to the jam, none are firing.

The Russian infantry pulls itself together and marches down the lanes. The suppressed HMGs are now toast. The tank fire will not let up and the infantry will arrive shortly to polish off the survivors.

Conclusion - even small HE, even area firing at targets without perfect ID, is extremely effective at *suppressing* enemy infantry in buildings. Against *light* buildings, it will also *break* the defenders, and if the firing is kept up for any length of time, decimate them, rubble the houses, etc. Vs. heavy buildings, heavier HE - 76mm e.g. - will break and decimate and rubble, as well.

At least as interesting to me as the combined arms moral ("any direct fire HE counters infantry or MGs in buildings") was the spotting behavior against the HMGs at range. When multiple sources of cover are available, do not worry that you will give yourself up by firing at long range with HMGs.

If the only possible source of the fire is clear, and a small point target, yes you may draw area fire as in this example. But a sound contact alone is poor guidance for area fire if there are many possible locations for the shooter. And enemy infantry will not locate you fully until they are close. Long range multiplies the effects of good concealment.

I hope this is interesting.

[Doodlebug]

Thank you for that Jason. Now to put it into practice in my current game

[Ubertracker]

BOOM!

SWOOSH!

"Another missed shell, Comrade General?"

"Da, Vasilly. Another one right through the open window."

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Ubertracker:

BOOM!

SWOOSH!

"Another missed shell, Comrade General?"

"Da, Vasilly. Another one right through the open window."

"General, is it getting chilly in here ?"

"Hmmm, you may be right Vassily, this russian winter is tough on us all...you better close the windows."

"Da, comrade General !"

//Salkin

Sipping on his molotov

[CombinedArms]

Very interesting, Jason!

I'm finding that surpressing fire against sounds contacts is also crucial to advancing against trenches. If you can spot the trench, put some MG, mortar or tank fire on the likely location of the MG in the trench and area fire away. (You can hit two adjacent spots if you have two shooters.) Most of the time the MG is surpressed and infantry can now advance. If the MG keeps shooting, you know you've got the wrong spot. As I said, I'm finding that supressive area fire is key in CMBB, just like in real life. Attackers suppress more easily in this game but so do defenders.

It might be interesting, Jason, if you redid your experiment with a MG rather than light tank firing at the HMGs in cover. Will it have a similar suppressing effect (maybe not quite as good, but good enough?) You might want to put the attacker's MG (or two?) in a building, as well.

[StellarRat]

Oh, that brings up another question! Why doesn't smalls arms fire eventually destroy light buildings? Or start a fire? Seems like there should be a chance for enough bullets to eventually break some beams and have the roof come down or a wall collapse. I could easily see this happening with MG fire. Tracers could light a wooden building on fire.

[JasonC]

Yes, defenders suppress more easily too, and that is the attacking infantry's hope. As for the MG test, it sounds perfectly doable, but why not try running it yourself? It is not hard to do. Just play a "hotseat" game "against" yourself, to observe what happens. Report the results to us.

My prediction would be that MG fire suppresses enemy MGs reasonably well if (1) they are in wood rather than stone (2) you use 2 MGs to hit one (3) you use a combat bonus commander. A lone MG, unaided, against an enemy MG at range in a stone building, probably won't do diddly. But there is nothing like trying it to find out, is there?

Everything that can be tested must be tested (someone once said).