why are there no civilians?

[ichadwick]

Originally posted by ononehand:

The most unrealistic aspect of this game are the civilians or lack of them.

Whoa. The most unrealistic thing in this game is the lack of furniture. Soviet tankers removed mattresses from beds and strapped them to their tanks so the panzerfaust shots would detonate outside the tank. Why can't we do that?

What about the missing chairs and tables so the men can get a good meal sitting down? And we need the stove and sink to prepare the food too.

And I want to see the commander seated at a table, map in front of him, as a sergeant stands saluting before him. Don't forget a coat rack so he can take off his greatcoat and hang it up properly.

And there should be a little radio so soldiers can listen to the strains of Lili Marlene and the BBC while they crouch in the dark. Maybe soldiers could have random harmonicas or accordians to play while they wait for the enemy.

And I am definitiely concerned about the lack of latrine facilities. Even the most fanatic soldier has to take a dump some time. Not even the largest buildings have toilets - let alone showers, bathtubs and wash basins.

And let me ask where the pews are in the church? How come the doors on buildings don't open? Why can't we close the window shades? How unrealistic!

And where are the flower gardens and the little vegetable patches in the villages? Why are there no bicycles and automobiles in the city streets? What about hydro poles, parking meters and street lamps? Where are the swings on the trees for kids to play on? Why isn't this game a lot more like Sim City with tanks?[b/]

In fact, CMBB isn't realistic. It simulates historical events and conditions - but it does not mimic reality. This is a game. A good game, a game with oodles of accuracy, realistic situations, and well-crafted, well-integrated data to model results and sufficient detail to make results fall within real historical and material possibilities. But a game nonetheless.

It is about small-scale combat, not politics or social issues.

If you want more realism, join the armed forces. Or play one of those kill-the-civilian games liek Carmageddon.

[SgtMuhammed]

To give your question the serious answer that it doesn't really deserve, there are no civilians because this is a tactical and not a moral or political simulation. Regardless, the simple fact that you even ask this shows your lack of study and the annoying habit of people to put modern morality on historical situations.

Quite frankly the presence of civilians on the WWII battlefield made absolutly no difference to either side. If a village had to be taken it was taken, if there were people there they were dealt with after the fight (for better or for worst).

If you want to get your rocks off by exploring the darker side of warfare and human nature the go back to playing FPS games where you can kill all the friendlies you want.

[ February 01, 2003, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Sgtgoody ]

[ononehand]

The use of civilians can be used to create added realism in wargaming. Firstly, It is well documented that during the latter part of ww2, when the elite german SS forces entered the war, they committed widespread war crimes against civilians and captured soldiers. Deliberate attempt to induce fear into the Russians/allies and destroy their morale. However, this had the opposite effect, as the Russians/allies fought harder ..to the death…and they knew they would die anyway if they surrendered to the SS.

So in terms of wargaming. Before,during and after the battle, civilian and militia or resistance fighters can 1)slow down the enemy advance, offer help to the Russians or germans in the case of the ukranian traitors…by sabotaging supply lines etc ..which will reduce ammo supplies for the next battle. 2) provide local intelligence information which can help you decide what units to choose for the next battle. Then you can decide whether you need additional reconnaissance units. 3) civilian resistance units could join the battle as well.

After the battle. Once you’ve rounded up the civilians(the ones that havent’t been killed during battle or crossfire) and surrendered enemy soldiers, you could have the option to release them, send them to a camp or massacre them. If your own morale is quite low, you may decide to massacre them, as this ought to raise the morale of your own troops. The enemy new recruits will see their morale plummet, however the morale of enemy seasoned veterans will rise as they will be more willing to fight to the death. So as a commander you will have to make realistic tough decisions- before, during and after battle. This is consistent with WW2 military history. Afterall, if you have lost nearly all your units trying to take a well defended building and the enemy decide to surrender just as you are about shell the life out of them, wouldn’t you want to massacre them anyway out of revenge/frustration?

[Nolloff]

Thanks for your attempts at setting new benchmarks in the amount of nonsense per posting category.

You had your second in the spotlight. Please go away.

Nolloff

[Ellros]

Ononehand, you may want to stick out your peepee so MadMatt can stomp on it.

Btw, have you posted this stupid question on other forums? I don't recall seeing civilians in MOH, or the Close Combat series. Or <gasp> in GI Combat. You might want to post this question there too you know. Can't leave them out.

[Moon]

Originally posted by ononehand:

The most unrealistic aspect of this game are the civilians or lack of them. The introduction of civilians would provide an interesting edge to wargaming. Afterall civilians can provide intelligence information. And considering the number of atrocities and war crimes commited during ww2, the game should allow you to recreate these atrocities. Including the option to save or even massacre civilians and captured soldiers and officers. This is warfare afterall. That would be very realistic.

Massacres and atrocities against civilians have no place in a tactical combat simulation like Combat Mission. And people who seem to take enjoyment from something like this, have nothing lost on our forum. You are banned.

Martin