Could we have a way to block AI HT purchase in CMAK QBs?

[CombinedArms]

One of the AI's problems in CMBB and CMBO--widely acknowledged in some long-ago threads-- is a tendency to load up on HT's when allowed to make its own QB purchases. HT's are hard to use successfully as combat vehicles by even the most skillful players--you've got to find a way to introduce them to the battle w/o getting them killed by the many weapons that can turn them into flaming pyres. But the AI not only buys lots of HTs but drives them right into combat and (usually) instant death. This makes the AI less competitive vs human players in a QB than it might otherwise be and also limits my desire to let the AI purchase for me in QBs. I don't want all those damn half tracks that I'm certain to get. I sometimes make the defending AI infantry-only to avoid this problem, but then I don't get to fight vs. tanks.

I'm making a humble plea that in CMAK BFC consider offering us a solution to this problem--just a little box in the QB parameters window that lets us block the AI from auto-purchasing HTs. I'm working on the assumption that this would be a simple option for Charles to program in--and that it could be turned off or on. One might also make HT purchase a variable quality, like variable rarity. I do think it could make a QB with the AI a good deal more challenging.

Just my 2 kopecks--or would that be pence?

[ September 24, 2003, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Michael Emrys]

There already exists within the game a way to avoid the problem, and that is to allow the human player to purchase the units for both sides. Of course you have to be honest and try to put together a legitimate historical force for each side rather than engage in cherrypicking, either positively for your own force or negatively for the AI. But I've been doing this for a while now and it works well for me.

I do wish I could somehow program the AI to utilize what I give it more sensibly, but until I am willing to use the scenario editor to design a game from scratch with sensible setup areas and fortifications locked in place, I don't guess that's gonna happen.

Michael

[lcm1947]

This brings up an idea I had many months ago. What if you could get someone from the forum to just choose the AI's force for it? He would do nothing else just pick the force and get it back to you somehow and you could continue on with your QB. I don't know if this is possible but it seems this would eliminate this age old problem. Just a thought.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

What if you could get someone from the forum to just choose the AI's force for it?

I don't know any way at present that can be done over the wires. If you have a friend in town who could come over to your house he could substitute for you in the procedure I described in my post above. That seems like a lot of trouble to go to though. Why not just do like I said and pick an honest force for the AI?

Michael

[JonS]

lcm,

I've done that for two players in the past. Hard to see why it wouldn't work for a human vs. AI game. The problem, I suspect, is that games agin the AI are generally quickfire ways to play a game. Involving someone else in the purchasing would tend to slow that process down rather considerably.

What one could do, I suppose, is create QBs where the AIs forces are selected, then have them posted somewhere (like a special section of The Scenario Depot perhpas?). Thus, it would be rather similar to the way that full scenarios are currently handled, without all that hassle of actually designing a scenario (except the purchasing). As such, they would be fairly quick to build. Then if you wanted to play a quickie agin the AI you could go and download one which fits your criteria (year, size, season, forces, etc).

As a start point, Michael Emrys may have some of those he talked about above saved somewhere?

Regards

JonS

Edit: Michael, I think it could be done over the wire - just save it and email.

[ September 24, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[David Chapuis]

Michael, I think it could be done over the wire - just save it and email.

I dont think there is anyway for the 3rd party human to pick just AI forces, like it is done in a QB. Of course, you could create a scenario, generate a random map in the editor, have a 3rd party human pick computer forces, and then have him send it back to you and you pick your forces in the scenario editor (just dont peek at the opponents forces).

But I agree with the original poster - the AI does pick too many HT's. IIRC, the only exception I have seen is with "armor" force types - but I havent played a lot of computer pick "armor" battles.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by JonS:

As a start point, Michael Emrys may have some of those he talked about above saved somewhere?

Edit: Michael, I think it could be done over the wire - just save it and email.

Hmmm. Yes, I might have one or two laying about. I'm not sure if it would work, but I might be willing to give it a try.

Alternatively, how hard is it just to knock off a scenario? I haven't tried this, but won't the editor make up a map if you set the parameters, just like it does for QBs? Then all you'd have to do is purchase the units and send it along. The advantage of a scenario would be that you could play either side and you could customize the map some if you wanted to take the time.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by David Chapuis:

I dont think there is anyway for the 3rd party human to pick just AI forces, like it is done in a QB.

That's right. There might be some way to send someone the setup turn of a single player QB I had started and then have them plug that in and go with it. But they would have to play with own side forces that I had picked too, as well as the map I had asked for. This might work, but it still seems to me that if you are going to go to this much trouble you might as well crank out something in the editor, which would give you more control and flexibility.

Michael

[CombinedArms]

Thanks, guys, for all the suggestions. Regarding picking the AI's forces for it: yes, I could do it and I do do it sometimes, probably doing a better job for the AI than it usually does for itself. But, sometimes I like to be surprised--not know what I'm facing. That can't happen if I pick th forces.

And the idea of having another human pick the AI forces is interesting, but generally if a human is handy for that, i'd rather play the human head to head. I generally only play a QB vs. the AI if I've got a little free time and no PBEM turns in my box.

So, I would tend to return to my original suggestion. The worst single feature of AI force picking is its tendency to load up on HT's. And if we could the option of blocking that, I think it would be a plus.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

Regarding picking the AI's forces for it: yes, I could do it and I do do it sometimes, probably doing a better job for the AI than it usually does for itself. But, sometimes I like to be surprised--not know what I'm facing. That can't happen if I pick th forces.

Pick the forces ahead of time. Especially if you pick them the night before while you are roaring drunk, you won't be able to remember them. And they'll be so off the wall you would never have guessed.

Michael

[lcm1947]

Yeah I agree Combinedarms I on occasion like a surprise too and is the reason I sometimes let the computer pick the enemy force course I have to do it 100 times before I find one I can tolerate. Too bad about my idea not working but if there's a will there's a way.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Yeah I agree Combinedarms I on occasion like a surprise too and is the reason I sometimes let the computer pick the enemy force course I have to do it 100 times before I find one I can tolerate. Too bad about my idea not working but if there's a will there's a way.

I once mentioned the ability to use random reinforcements in the scen editor:

Low probabilities for AI reinforcements per turn but an early start turn. E.g. for AT defense scens, you would buy most of the AI force while the "surprise" reserve element is packed into those reinforcements that may never appear. 2% over 30 turns mean the unit will appear with only 45% probability, 1% over 30 turns is just 26%.

Now factor in the length of the battle and the start turn, add a deep map where the reinforcements have to move up to contribute to the battle - and you have your surprise game. Including that you don't even know the enemy force size.

What I never tried is using a (static) advance operation to achieve this. Little enemy forces in the first scen, and you don't move forward. Battle 2 sees random reinforcements (availabe in turn 0, and you start your attack.)

Might work as AI attack if you put a lone enemy unit on a hidden artificial island during battle 1.

Another untried idea is too only choose the random reinforcements and the map in the scen editor, then import the map and the units in the QB generator and select an all infantry force. Don't know if reinforcements are imported into qbs.

Next idea is to choose the inf + arty in the scen, import them and fire up a QB with "pure armor" for the AI.

To offset force imbalance, you can use a force size bonus or buy yurself a few units in the editor, too.

Gruß

Joachim