How to use mechanized divisions well!

[ErikinWest]

I need some startegy on how to use a mechanized force. Since me and my friend like to play quick battles i have tried the Mechanized force but it always seems to do badly.

Need some help for both German and Soviet,

Erik

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Well, in my case I've noticed that any halftracks

that are taken out usually cause the carried unit to

vanish. The crew may bail out with 25-50%

casualties, but the passengers are SOL it seems.

Perhaps this is to reflect that any soldiers which

DO survive the attack will have lost most of their

equipment bailing out of the burning halftrack.

Hence I only bring up the halftracks once I'm sure

all enemy AP units have been neutralized.

[JasonC]

I think he means mechanized force type, not a mechanized division type with an armor or combined arms force type.

The mechanized force type gets no armor points, and an unlimited vehicle point budget. It can simulate a motorized infantry formation for the Russians, and for the Germans a motorized or armored Panzergrenadier or Recce formation.

The Germans have far more gun armed vehicles on the vehicle screen. Russians used tanks for this, and have only the most limited selection of vehicles on theirs. A match between mech forces is thus not remotely an even match - the advantage is to the Germans, and large.

If you don't care about in game effectiveness, you can get realistic forces with the Russian mech, but they are only suitable to fight against an infantry force type, really. Also, the map needs to by quite large (and preferably a deep, custom one, not a QB auto one that tends to be quite shallow), or there really isn't much point in having as many soft vehicles as is realistic. Soft vehicles only help tactically by helping dismounts to reposition. If eveything is in range to begin with, that is a waste of points.

Here is a realistic 1500 point Russian motorized rifle force -

2 motorized rifle companies

2 45mm ATGs

2 82mm mortar

2 120mm radio FO

4 tank hunter or 2 sharpshooter

2 M3 scout car (prime movers for 45mm ATGs)

1 BA-64 B radio light AC

2 BA-64 light AC

4 Jeeps

12 Trucks

Form company level heavy weapons groups from company HQ, 2 MMGs, 82mm mortar, 120mm FO. They can ride in 3 trucks, an extra jeep makes the loading more flexible (or allows a sharpshooter to be added).

A line platoon can be lifted by a jeep and 3 trucks. You can lift both heavy weapons groups and 2 out of the 6 line platoons, or half the force at a time. The scout cars tow the 45mm until those are in overwatch positions. After that, they can help reposition MMGs and such under fire, and support with their own MGs. Keep front facing, as the sides are vulnerable to German MG fire. The armored cars scout together, the radio car back slightly.

This is not any gamey optimum. It spends 400 points on "lift" that won't help on a small map.

With a larger force, you can use the motorized rifle battalion as the core of the force. That adds a company of SMGs, 3 MMG platoons, and an 82mm FO. It is more MGs than you need to attack, really. You should add a battery of 4 76mm guns (ZIS-3 most common) for direct fire support, with a larger force like that. 4 on map 82mm may make sense and won't be unrealistic - use them with MMG platoons. Add some tank hunters sent with the SMGs. You can add a few pioneers if you like, as well.

You don't need enough "lift" to pick up the whole force, and it would be a waste of points. If you are up against any kind of armor or mech, the support point category can become a problem because you want more guns and teams, and all the MGs and mortars already take up most of it.

Most of the time, real Russian mech formations defended with such motor rifle units, holding ground the tank portions of the parent unit had taken. Vehicles let them keep up and shift forces to meet any threat. But the actual ground-taking attack was tank led.

Here is a sample Russian 1500 point force from a mech formation, that would be used for actually attacks. It would have the armor force type, not mechanized. And be very tank heavy - as in 2/3rds of the points spent on armor.

9 T-34s

5 T-70s

SMG company

1 sharpshooter

5 DP LMG

2 50mm mortar

1 120mm radio FO

Notice, the support weapons are the lighter types that can ride tanks - DP LMGs and 50mm mortars, not Maxim MMGs and 82mm mortars. The tasking would be as follows.

Two platoons of SMGs each give one squad to the company HQ, forming 3 mini-platoons. The platoon HQs each get an 50mm mortar and the company HQ gets the 120mm FO. These then ride the T-34s - squad, HQ+mortar, squad; squad, CompanyHQ+FO, squad; squad, HQ+mortar, squad. The HQs hang back on the HQ tanks, tactically. The company HQ is in the middle. This is your main body.

The T-70s go ahead of the main body, with 2 pairs right and left, the HQ tank trailing. They do not press, though - don't do recon by death. The initial "eyes" of the force are foot recon, described next. The T-70s support the foot recon, putting a pair of tanks on anything that shoots it up.

The foot recon casts a wide net of eyes from the DP LMGs (which have binocs) and the sharpshooter. These want to be in cover and looking, not walking over the enemy. They get to positions that can see locations, stop and look. Advance the eyes rather than the feet. You want to see tanks and bunkers etc, long before the tanks get close.

The last SMG platoon is the point of the foot recon. It sends one squad split - 4 and 3 SMG gunners - to walk through cover lining the route intended for the whole force. The HQ and other 2 squads trail those, and assault any small position it discovers. They provide new scouts when the lead ones get blown up. Narrow approach, compared to the wide net of eyes farther back from the LMGs and sharpshooter.

So the whole force is scouting wave on foot, T-70s close behind them but using cover until the foot guys have reached a location. That combined screen locates the enemy. The main body then picks points of attack, and launches at them, by platoons or all together. The main body has mortars and FOs to deal with guns without risking the tanks, or after they are found the hard way. The tanks do most of the killing, driving hard on "fast" to positions quite close to located enemy.

If fire brushes the SMG riders off the main body tanks, the tanks blow up the shooter with a hail of HE. If the enemy holds his fire, the SMGs dismount and close, with very high firepower from just a few guys. They deal with infantry AT, men hiding in their holes, interior of woods etc. The tanks do most of the killing.

That explains the division of labor typical of the Russian mechanized arm.

A mix could be realistic, using combined arms force type and a mech parent unit. Take a smaller force of tanks working with some SMG infantry, used as just described (2 platoons of T-34s without T-70s or with just 1-2, e.g). But then also give them ~2 companies of motorized rifle as described initially, and use those to hold anything the tank forces seize, to mop up the areas they bypass, etc.

It requires a pretty big force to show their division of labor on one map, though. They didn't really try it with one platoon of tanks and SMGs, and one company of motorized rifle - the attack portion won't be strong enough that way. You might defend though, with the tanks and SMGs acting as a reserve and delivering a local counterattack, I suppose.

That should cover the Russians. I hope this helps.

[ErikinWest]

Wow.

JasonC that was incredibly helpful. You get a cookie.

Erik

[ErikinWest]

I don't mean to push it but....

Would the strategy you just decribed work with German tactica? And if not please elaborate

Erik

[throwdjohn]

jason, you mention scouting with t-70s, but not "scout by death". I was unaware there is another way? for recon with light armor i am lost, if i use hunt they stop in front of somthing they know will kill them, move to contact and they stop in front of a sniper to get blown away by some unseen AT, or fast move always gets me shot in the sides. should i use smaller movement orders or a different type of move? please feel free to spend 4000 words on one of your uber helpful replies.

[JasonC]

Foot recon goes first. T-70s hang back behind the cover closest to the place the foot recon is exploring. Suppose nothing is found. Then the T-70s move up to behind the newly reached position and pause there. Sometimes the point will change directions somewhat, or the other portions of the scouting wave (LMGs etc) will reach some area and find it empty. T-70s can hang out behind those too, as well as the most recent place the point "cleared".

Eventually, somebody will shoot at the point platoon, usually at its leading scouts. When that happens, it is time to risk the nearest pair of T-70s. The pop out around the bit of cover they were at, just enough to get LOS to whoever is shooting at the point. Usually that means one or the other of them is also visible farther into the defending position. That's OK, just don't risk both of them to the same LOS area.

A pair of T-70s can shoot up any single enemy positions easily, in a couple of minutes, if allowed to do so. If that is all that happens, great. The shooter suppressed, the rest of the point platoon closes in and finishes them off. New half squads go out on point, if necessary. Go back to the previous form of advance.

The defender has two options to stop this. He either provides lots and lots of shooters all at once, to pin the whole point platoon, while being way too much for the T-70s to handle. Or, instead, he reveals some heavy AT hitter to take out one of the T-70s, or try to.

A T-70 still at a reasonable range and showing front facing won't get taken out by some little thing, like MG fire or an ATR or 20mm Flak or 37mm PAK firing AP. A 28mm squeeze bore might penetrate, about all you have to worry about among stealthy weapons. Most things either can't kill it, or can kill it readily enough but are also spotted as soon as they fire. Which means the T-70 can fire back and has a chance.

But maybe he kills one T-70, showing a gun to do so. Fine. Now you know where that gun it, you haven't lost any T-34s, you have mortars and an FO. You send the appropriate weapon forward, everybody else biding their time, and blow up the gun. Or pin it, and pop a T-34 into view afterward and finish it that way.

If instead he showed a whole line of anti-infantry shooters, then you have a located enemy main body for the tanks and SMG main body to chew on. The point platoon goes to ground or withdraws. Pick a line of attack to some of the spotted shooters, and hit them with the real stuff.

It is an escalation chain. Half squad, full platoon, T-70, overwatch fires, main body assault. He can decide how "hidden" he wants to stay, and his deployment let him get so much stuff in front of your chosen route. However far he wants to go up the chain, you go one step higher.

How is this different from recon by death? Isn't the first T-70 that shows itself, in danger? Sure, any unit on the battlefield, that doesn't sit out the whole game in defilade, is in danger. But "recon by death" means something else.

Recon by death, which I do not recommend, is driving several light armor items straight into the enemy positions until something blows them up. Leading. Not used when needed to shoot up someone already spotted, just charging into the enemy saying "I'm here, anybody want to shoot me?". There isn't any connection to the rest of the force, really. The guy doing it just wants to draw fire to see things doing the firing.

People get into the habit of it against the AI because the AI rarely uses covered arcs to limit its fire, sensibly. It will show you the whole defense trying to kill 1-2 items.

Humans, on the other hand, will laugh at the scouting vehicle, or blow it away with something keyholed. If you keep driving until he decides to shoot you, he picks everything about the engagement. And he isn't under any compulsion to engage at all, unless he likes the way it looks.

Recon isn't "by death" just because something leads and is vulnerable doing so. If there is overwatch and escalation waiting, to blow up anything that intervenes - and the risk is part of a threat you are creating, includes reasonable chances firing back, etc - that's acting as point for a real force. Not "recon by death".

[1stUkrainianFront]

> Most of the time, real Russian mech formations

> defended with such motor rifle units, holding

> ground the tank portions of the parent unit had

> taken. Vehicles let them keep up and shift

> forces to meet any threat. But the actual

> ground-taking attack was tank led.

Jason, what are you basing your very interesting comment on? I.e., what are some good sources to read about the actual Russian tactics?

Pretty much the only thing I've been able to find in the Russian sources is the old junk from the Red Army guys after they got passed through the Communist censor. You know, titles like "The 34s Went Into Battle!" (Shli v Boy Tridtsat' Chetverki) and pablum like that.

Inside they explain their victories in fascinating detail with deathless phrases like "Our tanks were fast and their armor was strong!" (Tanki bystri i krepka bronya!)

But as to actual tactical employment of a T-34 company, or how to link it with infantry, or how to conduct recon for it -- nada.

This is why it's been so much fun to discover CMBB, because it provides a tool to learn in detail how the stuff realistically *was actually* used.

Thanxx

[throwdjohn]

thanks a lot jason! your posts are always informative and rarely boring. My number one problem is impatience.

[JasonC]

Erikin West wanted sample German mech forces, presumably both mechanized force type and the real way the mech division fights, when it has armor to throw around too.

For the pure mechanized force type, no tanks, you can realistically go with an armored recon force or with a panzergrenadier force. The Pz Gdr fight a bit better in CM, because of greater staying power. But either can be fun to try.

1500 point armored recce force, mech

armored car platoon, 8 rad 20mm type

armored aufklarung platoon (7 SPW 250/1)

aufklarung company, 4 HMG, 2 81mm type

flakwagen, quad 20mm type

2 75mm leIG, towed

105mm radio FO

fighter bomber (e.g. Me-109 F)

The SPWs and ACs between them can lift all the heavy weapons, company and weapons HQ, and FO.

Scout with the infantry on foot, hose anything you find with vehicle MGs and the heavy weapons. You have to use the dismounted heavy weapons (mortars, FO, HMGs) to deal with anything dangerous to the light armor. The armored cars can withstand ATR fire if they keep front facing. Close assault enemies only after they are suppressed.

The whole force is high firepower but has little "wind" (limited ammo, not a lot of infantry depth). But against an enemy with only infantry, or with vehicles limited to trucks and a few MG only armored cars, they can be effective.

1500 point panzergrenadier force, mech

Vet panzer grenadier company, 4 HMG type

Vet armored pz gdr platoon (1 37mm, 3 MG SPWs)

2 more Vet pz gdr platoon (6 all told)

2 SPW 251/9 (your "leIG"s are mounted)

2 SPW 251/2 (so are your 81mms)

105mm radio FO

Compared to the previous, you have about twice the infantry depth, but only half as many light armored vehicles.

The SPWs carry the HMGs, FO, and weapons and another HQ. 2 of those SPWs with 2 HMGs and an HQ aboard, which spots for a 251/2, plus a 251/9 for keyholed direct fire, form a heavy weapons grouping. One of them has a 37mm too and the other has the FO aboard.

Use one of the line platoon HQs as the second weapons group leader, not the company HQ. The company HQ is too valuable for that. Give it all of that platoon'squads and send it with the main body. Scout with a wave of half squads from two platoons, find a point you want to attack.

Position your heavy weapons to take down enemies located that way, one or two at a time, using the exact right weapon - mortar vs. gun, 75mm vs. MG in a house, FO vs. full platoon in woods, etc. HMGs keep suppressed anyone the heavy stuff hurts. They and the vehicle MGs also try to isolate each bit of cover with crossing LOS lines, preventing side to side repositioning.

When you've pried enough of a way forward, follow the scouts somewhere with the bulk of the remaining infantry, the company HQ in the middle of the force. Overwhelm whatever they hit. Bring up HMGs and 'tracks and use them to split off other areas of cover. Screen one way and throw your weight the other.

If you have combined arms rather than mech force type, you can use a similar force, but with 5 regular or 4 veteran platoons. Then add a StuG platoon (gamey effective), or a pair of Pz IVs (much more realistic), or a Tiger and a StuH. You don't need 251/9s, the tanks replace them as direct HE chuckers. You do still want 251/2s, or dismounted 81mm mortars.

But that is less armor than they really fought with. To get the right amount you really want an armored force type. Then a modest portion of armor would look like this -

5 Pz IV H

Vet Pz Gdr company

Vet Pz Gdr platoon (4th), not armored.

2 251/2

1 105mm radio FO

Vet sharpshooter or extra LMGs

HMGs can ride the tanks, with HQs and radio FO. 81s wouldn't be able to, so for those you either want 251/2s or a few HTs to help move foot teams. One flakwagen or dismounted quad 20mm or 37mm AA can also make sense, e.g. for one of the 251/2s.

If you had more points you could double the armor, and it would still be a realistic mix.

When you have tanks they work in pairs, at first supplimenting the heavy weapons from range. But once the enemy starts to weaken - the same time the Pz Gdr mech force above would send in its main body - the tanks close in along with most of the Pz Gdrs.

I hope this helps.

[Bigduke6]

1st UkrainianFront,

For starters you might try reading Mikhail Katiukov's "At the Sharp Edge of the Main Blow" It is primarily on the operational level but there is plenty of tactical stuff to dig out. It's in Russian on the web, just search Katiukov (I don't have the address at home, where I'm typing.) I am assuming you know Katiukov commanded 1st Guards Tank Army, the top striking force in a tiny and obscure Soviet military formation called "1st Ukrainian Front".

As I remember Rotmistov, Bagramian, Leliushenko, Batov, Babadzhian, and several other Soviet tank army/corp commanders wrote memoires as well - all of which you can read on the web.

Another great source is the memoirs section of the Russian Battlefield site. The English side is under reconstruction but the Russian-language side is still quite functional. There are some terrific personal accounts from veterans.

The tank and cannon sections of Russian Battlefield also have outstanding information including tactical accounts. If you want to read about how Germans shot up Soviet tanks, read about the Soviet tank in question. If you want to read about how Soviets shot up German tanks, read about the Soviet cannon in question.

A final note, there are supposedly military book stores in Moscow that will probably suprise you with recently-published stuff based on first-hand accounts. Come to think of it, seeing as you're heading that way there may be some stuff I might ask you to obtain for me, the new book situation in the provinces where I am is not as good. I'll be in touch.

[1stUkrainianFront]

Hee hee. I love CM.

I remember spending hours with PanzerBlitz back in the 80's trying to see how battalion orders of battle were made up and how they interacted. This is so much better.

BigDuke, shoot me an e-mail off the forum with whatcha need.