Equipment available at the battalion level - Heer and SS?

[Apache]

I am trying to put a couple of tables together which list the type and rough number of extra 'units' a battalion would be able to call upon without reference too much higher up the command chain. I accept that battalions varied enormously and that as the war progressed different units became available. The idea is to use the list for a set of campaign rules, which is an adaptation of Biltong's, to guide players as to what they may realistically have had access too. I have to therefore try and do a generic guide.

The rules start in June '41 and will progress through the whole campaign. In the majority of cases the whole battalion will NOT be deployed, rather players will select portions of it dependant on the various missions (e.g. probe, attack and defence). It is intended to help those who wish to, avoid wild innacuracies in unit selection (e.g. two companies of SS being supported by (amongst other things) 6 Flakpanzers (when, AFAIK, they were only issues in parcels of around 8 to a whole division), or 4 150mm FOs, 10 Nashorns or 12 Flammpanzers etc. etc.

I am working on the basis that an SS and a Panzer Grenadier (Panzer) Battalion would probably operate on a very similar basis and that a regular Heer infantry bn would likely have much lower levels of kit, being supported by Stugs rather than tanks and having higher numbers of towed guns. I am working on the basis that the SS bn is armoured.

Some of my sources (and some are dated), vary ENORMOUSLY. Michael Dorosh has offered to look over some spreadsheets I have done (pse let me know if you don't receive the mail) and JasonC has helped out way back to a degree in previous correspondence re CMBO (are you still CMing Jason?).

The main areas I wish to tidy up are:

1) AT assets (aside from those that CMBB allocates when you pick a bn). Numbers, proportion and caliber (for specific AT rather than AA used as). Also, as war progresses, likely numbers of Pz IV/70, Hetzers and Marders etc. Am working on the basis that most J/Panthers etc in late war were Western front and that J/Tigers were rare and were deployed mainly closer to Berlin in last ditch defence (Remagen etc.?). Sources of course may be wrong. I stress though that the lists are a guide and do not need to be 100% spot on (but the closer I can get the better mind).

2) Arty - again, excluding any allocated with a CMBB bn purchase (2x75mm IIRC). I am working on the basis that generally 105/150mm would be way back behind the lines and therefore will use FOs in the main. My sources vary on how many FOs (max) a bn would be able to call on though. At moment I am using 2 x 105 and 1 x 150 for Heer and one of each for SS (on the basis that SS would get HE support from tanks etc as well). In some cases (overruns etc) I accept that the 105/150 guns may be on map too and again I need to define numbers (12 and 4 respectively - Heer and SS?). AFAIK the SS use of IGs would be less (non existant?) but as for Heer, one source says 12 per coy and one approx 4 (on the basis of the bn drawing one third of the division's allocation). In total, I am looking to cover 120mm Mortar (at moment I am asigning 1 FO per Bn, SS or Heer, in addition to their 81s), 105/150 (numbers/ratio) and others (75s, sIGs and later, any SP).

3) AA assets, again number, propertion of caliber. Particularly interested in number of 88s (which will doubtles be deployed for AT use) for SS and whether Heer would have them at all. Believe SS would be likely to have vehicle mounted to Sd or Flakvierling (1-2 max?).

4) Sh/shooters, T/Hunter teams and ATRs (the individual CMBB units rather than any that come with other infantry purchases). I am looking at creating these as an attached pool, but roughly how many to a bn. At moment I have just plucked the figure of 6 out of the air for both SS and heer.

5) Trucks, Sd Kfz 7 and 250/251 1/2/10s etc.

6) A/cars, on the basis of a recon platoon (vehicles + troops) being attached. Am assuming roughly 6-8 vehicles, mainly MG or 20 mm armed with perhaps 1-2 max 75mm and am giving them an Aufklarung Platoon. I am not sure whether the Heer would have had access to such a recon unit (esp the A/Cs) or whether they would have achieved it by other means?

7) Finally tanks/stugs. Number of comapnies and proportions of IIs, IIIs and IVs or III B, E F, F/8 and Stuh etc (which will of course vary as the war progresses). At present the SS have two companies of tanks rather than a whole bn (1 light and two medium, or very early 2 light and one medium?). The first coy is IIIs (mixed) and the second is III (larger gunned) and IVs. I am also allowing for the (VERY) occasional attachment of a platoon (max) of Tigers (mainly for armour confontations) and have also attached a platoon of light tanks IIs. I have perhaps mixed the coys up a bit much but I thought a complete bn of tanks was a little OTT and I wanted to ensure that there was a good mix, not just the upgunned varieties. As for the Sugs, I'm currently using a company (1 pl of B, 1 of Fs and 1 of Stuh).

Any help/views much appreciated.

Edited 1,000,000 times for errors :mad:

[ January 19, 2003, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Olle Petersson]

For my Triple Battle idea (linked in my sig) I'd use the next level up for easy-to-come-by extras.

A battalion would thus get extra stuff from the same regiment.

Other divisional units would be added on a request/need basis.

Most important is to not mix similar assets from different organisational units.

Example: If they get tanks, all tanks are from the same platoon/company/battalion/regiment (depending on the amount), and no assault guns or tank destroyers are used.

Cheers

Olle

[JasonC]

Sounds like you are using way too much. Too much variety, above all. Vehicle types are standardized for given units. And cross attaching platoons of this and that (ACs, TDs, this tank, than tank) all the way down the organization tree is something the Germans just did not do. American armor TFs sometimes did that sort of thing, but the standard tactical unit for the Germans was a company, and they avoided splitting below that. There are only a handful of exceptions, those rare.

Heer infantry would be lucky to have one company of StuGs attached - which means 10 vehicles, all of one type - an "independent" HQ vehicle, and 3 3 StuG platoons, in CMBB terms. When an infantry battalion did have a StuG company attached and was close to full strength, it was "attack capable". That level of support would practically never be seen when just defending. Defending you might see a single platoon as a reaction reserve - one of the few cases where you'd see a mere platoon of anything used, and only because they were so poor in overall assets. Often there was only one company of StuGs in a division, often none.

Sometimes you would see Marders instead of StuGs, late war (44 on, for Heer infantry - the early Marders were monopolized by the mobile formations). Thus would appear in platoons of 4, rarely more and certainly not with other types of armor present as well. From fall 44 through 45, occasionally you'd see Hetzers instead of StuGs. No mixing - a unit would have one of the three. The only mix you'd sometimes see is 1 StuH per StuG platoon. No halftracked armor or armored cars for these guys, either.

Instead of any armor, you would sometimes see a towed PAK battery from the divisional Pz Jgr battalion. Especially early on, 42-43, before the StuGs became numerous. These would often be good gun types for the era - 50mm PAK before the tide turns, 75mm PAK for the second half (Russian offensive period). In 1941 only, it might be mere 37mm PAK, but that isn't being very nice to a German Heer infantry commander.

You would not see 120mm mortars in the Heer infantry, as a general rule. There weren't nearly enough of them, and the mobile formations had top priority. You would see 81mm, both on-map and as FOs, with phones (defending) or radios (attacking, sometimes even defending). As for the little 50mms, they had them at company level but the ammo expenditure for them says they weren't heavily used.

Even the 81s were not the most common form of arty support, because they were often out of ammo. The overwhelming majority of the fire support you'd see would be from 105mm FOs. 81mm sometimes, and 150mm sometimes - the 4 gun, division level FOs, not the 2 gun regimental ones (which are infantry guns, with far less range and less well supplied). They would virtually always have one battery of 105s to support them, and sometimes they'd have 3x105s (a battalion), e.g. supporting an attack. In the late war, you'd occasionally see 150mm Nebelwerfers - everything else is "exotic" and would not appear.

As for on map guns, there is the one place the Germans did play mix and match with small elements, sometimes as little as a pair of guns (a section, half of a 4 gun battery). The "allocation" to a battalion could be 2x150mm sIG or none, and 2, 4 or 6 75mm leIG. These were mostly used for direct fire in defensive schemes, from heavy weapons "strongpoints" situated in a sort of second line behind the forward infantry company positions.

For PAK, it increased over the course of the war. Often you'd see nothing. Sometimes you'd see 2-4 PAK, one caliber only. Some of these came from the regimental PAK companies, and some from divisional Pz Jgrs. 37mm would be the most common type early. From late 42 to the end of 43, 50mm. 44 and onward, mostly 75mm. One type, again. If a full battery (4) of the better type are present, it would be in place of any kind of armor.

For light FLAK, Heer infantry was lucky if they saw any of it. One company of the divisional Pz Jgr battalion sometimes had some. At the level of a battalion, the most likely situation would be "none". Sometimes you might see a lone 37mm FLAK, or occasionally 3 of them. A pair of 20mm would be the most common. 4 20mm, or a 20mm quad, would be comparatively rare.

You should think of the on map guns as a "pool" of heavy weapons. 81mm mortars, 75mm infantry guns, PAK and light FLAK - a defending battalion would have -some- of these, typically 2 batteries worth all told (on-map - an FO or two in addition). But they would not have every type. They'd have two types, and enough of them, instead of dribs and drabs of all 4, let alone multiple varieties within each class.

So maybe it is mortars and PAK, but then no IGs or FLAK. Or maybe the 81s are only present as an FO, but then there are 2 sIG and 1 37mm FLAK. If the other guns were not available in sufficient numbers, or if facing better Russian medium tanks early without good PAK, you could see 2 or 4 105mm howitzers on map in place of one of the usual direct fire gun varieties. You'd still see indirect 105 FOs too, though not 3 of them.

All of that is Heer infantry. I'll cover the other types in subsequent posts.

[Maj Soshtokovich]

Hi,

I would be intersted if you could sent me a copy of your existing spreatsheet and your final "non UBER" SS Btn.

Thanks

[Apache]

Jason, many thanks for response. Just about to go out so cannot go through it fully now.

The main reasons for mixing the tanks etc with the SS/Pz is so that I don't have to attach a full bn of tanks (1 Light/2 Med coy?) but, the player still does not get the benefit of full companies of the larger gunned tanks. On that basis I thought mixing the III variants would be the best way to 'replicate' the 1 to 2 company light/medium mix. Like I say, rushing now, or at least my wife is rushing me. Will go through it much more tomorrow. Many thanks for your input which I always regard VERY highly.

[manchildstein (ii)]

for information about the start of the campaign, check http://www.freeport-tech.com

under 'index' then 'germany' you will see some very interesting links... you can get an idea about what kind of support units were organic to the divisions and regiments at the time...

some of the armored divisions even list their attached sig/33 'companies' (6 sig/33)... there were 6 such 'companies' spread out over 20 divisions (in other words only 6 of 20 had them)...

among other things there are also some details on attached vehicular AA as well

[Apache]

Jason, many thanks for your response to my post.

I have probably described the list I am trying to create a little incorrectly. I suppose it should be better described as: 'A Battle Group (shopping) list for both Heer Infantry and SS where the largest infantry element that the player will deploy is one battalion'.

The lists therefore do not have to reflect just the units organic to the battalions themselves, rather they provide a shopping list (which will be supplemented by explanatory notes) which give players some idea of what they can/should buy if they want to keep within the bounds of realism.

To some extent I suppose the fluid nature of a battle group formation might mean that anything is possible but I am trying to keep to a kind of 'vanilla' option, if there is such a thing. Some players are clearly interesetd in trying to be historic but perhaps lack the knowledge, sources or inclination to prepare such a list. The list is for my purposes and anyone else who wants it. If players want to go and take two platoons of JadgTigers, that is a matter for them.

I have mailed you the lists themselves (not sure if you use Excel) which may give you a better idea of what I'm trying to do. The numbers next to the units represent the absolute maximum a player could pick if the WHOLE battalion is deployed, the notes will qualify to help prevent excesses (e.g. If only one company of infantry is deployed, take only one platoon of Stugs max). Hopefully you get the idea. I have incorporated most of the above information from your post into the notes on Heer.

[ January 21, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]