retreating

[coe]

anyone have good tips for retreating when you are the platoon or company expected to hold out against a major attack (e.g. soviet battalion or more). So early on the going is good (like the first minute) but then there is massive firepower and that pins everyone.

It seems the only way to retreat is if the enemy is repulsed, and then falls back momentarily... then you bug out (so in the case of a big attack the best time seems to be right at the end of the first minute). If I try fighting withdrawals, usually my trooops get pinned, panic and then die 50% losses on a fall back to a position 100 yards back is about minimum for me....any tips?

(ok this assumes you don't have artillery to smoke things over)

Conan

[Falcon988]

Without smoke it's damn near impossible to withdraw from a defensive position during an attack. You're better off holding your ground than running out into the open. Best bet is to anticipate which positions are weak and withdraw well before a major attack is in progress.

[Lucho]

Yes, use some forward reconaissance troops (sniper, HQ with stealth bonus) in order to detect the enemy line of advance and to get a guess how big the force is. Retreat immediatelly.

Cover your retreat with artillery fire (smoke e.g.).

Put your defenses somewhere where you have safe routes to it.

Counterattack with fixed bayonets or attack the enemy force before it reaches your main line of resistance.

When you want to cancel contact with the enemy forces, it is better to leapfrog with advance orders over short distances. When a team or a squad gets pinned or panicked you have to choose wether you stay and rally them or you left them alone, thus saving the rest of your forces.

[GS_Guderian]

If you are defending in deep woods, it is possible to rush you mean out after the first encounter. But I guess you are talking about the more common small stripes of scattred trees and bushes you are sitting in.

Generally I try to not place my men in those wood islands with the next cover more then 50m away. You have to defend and die there. You men will have no chance to escape during an attack of at least 3:1 strength. My impression is, that compared to Close-Combat this is an area where the CM-Engine fails to reflect the reality.

As a platoon leader you give your men a point of retreat before the attack. And when you order your men to run, I literally mean RUN back to that spot, they will run. Some will stay, some will get shot, but they will run there individually. CM doesn´t allow that. If one guy is pinned, unanxious to run, cowered, out of breath or whatever he costs the live of the whole group. In CC he just stayed back, gave up, died or whatever. The rest of the group made it back, in bad shape and with wounded maybe, but at least they ran.

Now if you have minimum cover and more forces around, you can help you CM-Soldiers a little.

You said no smoke available, thus I guess no mortar fire to surpress the enemy either.

The times I got away from an enemy I tried it this way. The forward platoon, or the one that was in the center of the attack, which it repulsed long enough and is about to get shot, has to be supported by friendly units. It should not be pinned at the turn you try to run or you end up with a seperated platoon. And it the enemy should be further away then 100m - 150m, otherwise just stay put and let them die like heroes. Better then getting killed with shots in the back. At least in game terms.

Look at the disposal of weapons you got at hand. Even weapons that are rather far away to be effective. Now look at the enemy. All those guys that are standing, especially those that have the nasty red lines pointing on your "retreating" platoon should be fired at in the next minute.

I experienced best effects when firing with two MMGs/HMGs at one group each. They won´t do that much this minute. Neighbouring platoons take on another group. If they are close enough they might do two, but I suppose they are not, otherwise they outha be pulled out, next turn.

Guns, tanks and alike can do one group each, if reloading is fast enough.

Don´t bother at all with allready running or pinned enemies. And shoot at the closest ones to your "retreating" platoon. You need 10-20 secs for your guys to get up an RUN. Once they made it at the back of there tree islands the number of possible threats is decreased and they keep on running often enough. Sometimes in panic, sometimes in order. The worst thing to happen is getting pinned, before you even got to stand up. You will loose those groups 100%, especially if the platoon leader did run out of command radius.

Generally the whole thing is virtually impossible to happen without significant losses.

Therefore never retreat when then enemy is under 200m is a good rule. Do it early or don´t do it at all. I think retreating is the hardest infantry action in CM, much harder than in Close-Combat.

[imported_no_one]

Setup so that you can fall back.As a general rule,don't make assumptions.Plan for the worst,when it happens,you are either ready,or more ready than you would have been.Breaking LOS/contact isn't as hard as it seems sometimes,you just have to learn the tricks associated with it.Look at a heavy building for example.You can place a squad in a position where they can just barely see out,and can only be seen by a few enemy units.You can do this by placing the squad near the center of the building,or you can have them take advantage of the corners in the building to do this.

Lets say that the fighting starts at the 15 second mark of turn one.By the end of the turn you have one squad that is taking some heat from a few enemy squads.There are a few things you can try:

1)During the orders phase for turn two,issue a very small cover arc to the squad in question so that there aren't and won't be any enemy units within the arc,then tell them to hide--Do Not forget to cancel their target command.Depending on experience,HQ bonuses,and the squads willingness to follow orders,they should break contact(turn into a icon)during the turn.Sometimes they refuse the order,take that as a sign that they want to stay and fight.Use them to get others out.

Should it work,in the next orders phase,issue a small assualt command back in the direction that you want to fallback.Often times they will take some parting fire as they leave,the assualt command will hopefully make it so that they keep going.It normally does.You can also help to eliminate some of the "parting fire" by giving your squad another small cover arc that will make them face in the direction that they will retreat.Rotaion in correspondence with a cover arc IS NOT the same as giving a rotate command.A rotate command will cause hidden units to be spotted,whereas the cover arc rotation will not--this can also be applied to on map mortars and guns.If they have been moving and need to setup,you can use cover arcs to orientate their facing without hampering the setup time,unlike the rotate command.This works for guns,MG's,etc..By doing this,your units begins the next turn by turning in the direction that they will assualt.There will be no delay while they jump up and turn around before leaving.

2)If you have,and you should,units that are a few hundred meters behind the units that you are trying to fallback,you can have them put fire on the attackers to either pinn/distract,or outright draw their fire away from the other squad.This will help in alllowing the forward squad to break contact.

GS_Guderian

Your concept of the CM squad is not entirely correct.Think of the squad dynamic as global morale.If your squad is panicing that means that either the majority,or all of the members are freacking out.It is like a percentage,when enough members in the squad break,eventually the whole thing will.NOT all that unrealistic,all things considered.

Hope some of this helped.

[GS_Guderian]

Originally posted by no_one:

...GS_Guderian

Your concept of the CM squad is not entirely correct.Think of the squad dynamic as global morale.If your squad is panicing that means that either the majority,or all of the members are freacking out.It is like a percentage,when enough members in the squad break,eventually the whole thing will.NOT all that unrealistic,all things considered...

Well, unfortunately there is no "global" morale in real-Life. Running away, again I mean LITERALLY running away, for your life to be precise is an individual thing. All you here is MOVE, MOVE, MOVE and the shots around you. Of course Mike might be daring enough to help wounded Gerome up and Franz might be so scared that Hans starts a discussion with him about running, but this is the exception, not the rule. But the whole action of running is a very personal thing, you don´t need a platoon leader nor a group leader to run. You need Adrenalin and stamina. You are propably faster with a rifle, and slower with a MG, but you don´t turn back much to notice that somebody else has gotten behind. All you try is finding the dam way out, especially hard in the dark.

To use an allegory: If five men run away from a horde of lions in desperate fear, do they all turn around because one guy fell? Do they all stop because they lost contact to each other?

I doubt it.

As much as I like the concept of the groups in CM, the bondage is to close in certain situations. Appllied to WWII I come to think that CM Soldiers would have died in the very first battle, sitting in their position forever. In reality the VERY SAME SOLDIER ran off a position and retook it, and got driven off again several times a day. Impossible in CM. The casualties are much higher for several reasons, but one reason is the more than hard, virtually non existing option for short retreats in the game.

[imported_no_one]

I understand where you are coming from,and to my knowledge this may be something that will be fixed in CMX2--as I know it will have 1:1 representaion.

The thing for me though,I play really large engagements,so not only am I normally not concerned with an individual,I am also normally not concerend with an entire platoon or two.I guess at company level I begin to worry.

I guess for me,the concern of what 1:1 may take away from me,is more important than any benefits 1:1 may have to offer.

[GS_Guderian]

Yep,

I was much more afraid about the group system in CM before I started playing it anyway.

I guess much of the trouble emerges from me being a Panzergrenadier platoon leader. And I must say it feels really, really bad to order my Pixel Soldiers into a position I know they will never come out again. I want hope for survival, because the hope to get away with your life is what keeps your moral high. Unless we are talking about highly fanatic and fearless fighters.

Maybe CMX2 will have a better way to enable simple and streight runs. Maybe a new Command for "Sammelpunkte" is needed. Points you declare as gathering points in defense and especially in offense, fall back positions everyone knows.

Could be to much fiddling for regiments attacking, though

[JasonC]

The most important part is the choice of defending location. It needs a covered route to withdraw along. Typically this is created by the cover the defense is located in, which blocks LOS, creating a dead ground "shadow" behind the position.

What makes it harder is that isolated "islands" of cover can be cut off from your rear area, by angled lines slicing in from either flank. Especially for smaller clumps of cover, and ones based on less than continuous LOS blocks like houses in a village or thin patches of trees that can be seen through completely. Better is a ridge line or a long, large wood.

Then you still have to watch your flanks. You need to hold positions on the sides to prevent the enemy from sneaking in a LOS line onto your escape route. Watch his advance, and try to judge when he will get men far enough forward to threaten to do this.

There are lots of things that can tell you it is time to "bug out" to the next position. One is, when you are getting flanked and he is about to get LOS across your withdrawal route. Two is, when you see fat shell spotting rounds landing. (You can sometimes come back after those, though it is a tricky operation). Three is, enemy tanks or other big HE have LOS and you've been spotted, or they are tossing in 75mm plus HE at the whole position. Four is, the next set of cover forward is fully lined by enemy infantry and they are all firing. By the time all your men are pinned, it is getting too late.

You can still get away sometimes by using other assets to "separate" the fighting parties. For example, call down a barrage on that enemy occupied cover just ahead, and pull out while it is landing. Or, if it is too late for that, give everyone their movement orders to the rear and call a mission on your own location, to land after you leave.

You can also use on map mortars or guns to fire a few smoke shells at key enemy shooters (a gun or tank e.g.). MGs or guns farther back, or a platoon off on one flank in a different position, can cover the open ground immediately ahead, when you pull out. That makes it harder for his infantry to immediately occupy the area and shoot your retreating men before they get to the next body of cover, farther back.

Another useful thing can be an obstacle "shield", for the most exposed forward positions. Meaning, you set up right behind a string of wire or AP minefields - not one 20m strand, but a long belt of 5-10 of them. The enemy can't get through that quickly. You fight from 100m or so behind it, shooting men trying to cross. When several are across or one of the other conditions above (1-4) have happened, you still pull out. But it takes the enemy time to follow you.

A good defense is constructed out of multiple positions like this, some more elaborate and containing half a company, some simply affairs of one platoon, some just single HMGs. That interlock their fields of fire into open ground areas, so they still block easy forward progress when one of them is silenced or has to pull back.

Some areas of cover the enemy might use to get those cutting LOS lines are also turned into traps. Big woods get TRPs for off board arty. Small woods get a single tile of AP mines. A building gets a keyholed LOS line from an infantry gun, able to rubble it if the enemy sets up there. The MGs and platoon infantry fire covers the open, these HE type traps deal with covered areas. HE types and mines aren't effected so much by cover, and they get nastier the more enemy pack into small places.

In action, the HMGs tend to stay and fight. They want to burn their ammo before the enemy gets close enough to kill them. Leave 15-20 shots for close in fire, the last 100m of open ground, and go to a short arc when it gets that low. Burn the rest while they still only have a sound contact. But don't expect to get much re-use out of them. They can only occasionally reposition successfully - e.g. when no enemy comes their way, and they don't have LOS themselves.

Your squad infantry, on the other hand, needs to live to fight another day. If every time it fires and reveals itself, the enemy overwhelms them and they die or rout, then you will run out of defenders before he runs out of ammo or morale (let alone attackers).

What you want, is short arcs into open ground only, not firing at enemy still in cover and leaving the long ranges to MGs at first. Blow up his guys going first, when they step into the open right in front of your hidden squad infantry. The next turn or two, drop the arcs and fire at will, shooting everything you can. Then get out of there.

You only have the ammo for 6-8 minutes of fire anyway. You want to use that in 2-4 ambushes, not one long firefight against overwhelming attacker firepower, shooting into cover. If your squad infantry ambushes 2-3 times, it can kill half its own numbers without serious loss.

Occasionally you stop the guy hard enough that you can stay. But often it is still better to fade away and then come back. Deals with his arty and such. If your positions are properly interlocked, any one platoon can fall back, and still the line holds. It can come forward again if the attacker hasn't been able to take their old position.

This often happens with arty - the enemy can't advance into his own barrage. After it, he tries to take the place he hit, but sometimes your flankers stop him in the open. If you then get back in the position in front of him, you can really mess him up. An alterative is to hit him with arty when he does take the position.

(This tendency of a given body of cover to be hit by both side's arty as infantry steps in and out of it from either side, is known as "artillery tag". As in, "you're it").

I hope this helps.

[coe]

perhaps I guess when engaging a large enemy, one can't let them get too close (i.e. 40-50m) and one has to start firing from a longer range?

It is tough because even if you do have a covered route it sometimes seems the moment you get up and move the squad gets pinned and then shortly thereafter over-run

Conan

[JasonC]

You should be firing at the enemy at 100m or so, into open ground. Occasionally you might let a lone half squad get closer - mostly to wait until some of its friends are also in the open. You should fire for a minute after that, sometimes two, with no covered arcs (or longish ones, 150-250m). The point is to hit everyone you can nearby, not just the leading unit who crossed an arc boundary.

Then when you break contact, use advance, until LOS is broken. If you can, set up far enough back in woods that a short movement breaks LOS - not all the way up at the edge. (There are times one can't do this, though - e.g. when you need LOS to a side, or a panzerschreck needs the clearest possible shot without trees in the way).

You can't break contact from enemy already inside 40m and in the same body of cover as your men, who are up and firing - that is way, way too late. Those fights you either win or you don't. You win if you suppress them, and lose if they suppress you. If you are already pinned, the only way to save the unit is for somebody else to suppress the shooter hitting them, to "free" them.

[Askovdk]

An example of how it shouldn't be done can be seen in:

Askovdk's AAR at MZO

(But don't read it, if you plan to do a AAR yourself)

However it also contains some good discussion along the same lines as here.

Finally, - the other WC5 scenario 'Hunkertown' seems to be another defense against an huge enemy force, so I'll try to use some of all these good advices in the next game.

[imported_no_one]

Esentially it's like this.If you have your HMG's firing from inside of 250m(unless they are highly experienced or have a plus two to stealth)they WILL be spotted,and they WILL die!Period.So,hold your fire until 100m,maybe inflict a few casualties,not use but a tiny fraction of your ammo,and then die.Or,lean on the attacker,slow them down,use all of your ammo.Let them take their sweet time strolling across the open ground.In the meantime,you get to adjust your forces to perfectly accomodate where the attacker is going.You can move your armor into keyholes to engage the slwoly advancing enemy infantry.Rout a few away,slip back into the shadows.The attacker is left rushing armor all of the map in a desperate futile attempt to protect his infantry that is hung out there.

Pinned is an emotional state just like the others.Your troops may only be pinned,but it also only takes just a little more to push them over the edge.Look for the likely avenues of advance,and pre-sight all the little spots of cover that you know an attacker will use.With long range MG fire,you not only pinn,but you can inflict cover panic as well.This will often times(especially when dealing with a large attacking force)result in several infantry units caught in one little patch of scattered trees.There are tricks that you can use to help regulate how much ammo a on map mortar fires.Pump a few rounds into the patch of sct trees,if they are already "pinned",they may very well panic/break if enough rounds find their mark.If they weren't pinned,they are now!Now you've created a bottle-neck.Either he has to wait until the troops in question rally,or he has to find other routes of advance,or he has to push even more troops through that dangerous patch of cover.

When having HMG's engae from a distance,and you are concerned about using all of your ammo,have half of the total number of HMG's fire for turn 1,then have the other half fire for turn two.Repeat.Mkaes it harder to find them,extends their ammo.You still get to slow him down,perfectly spot what he has,and where it is going.

As the attacker gets closer,have all of the HMG's open up.Think of it like force,the more force that the attacker applies,the more you apply in return.Fire from a distance to by yourself time,adjust your forces,begin the attrition effort.As they get closer add more and more firepower.

Always try and defend out of the backside of cover.When you know that the enemy is about to encounter one of your forward scouts during the next turn.Give them a small(40m)cover arc,and issue an advance/assault command back through the cover and out of LOS.Pause the movement command until later in the turn.If all goes well,you have a succesful ambush,and your guys jump up and get out before all the fire starts coming in.

Edit to add:

There is also a long range HMG technique that I use called mass firing.This can be applied to a platoon versus platoon engagement,but you'll get the idea.Once you get experienced with long range tactics,you will learn how to distribute your own fire.Once you pick a target,maybe its the furthest enemy unit up the map,or looks like a sweet,juicy,slow moving support unit.Have all of your HMG's firing on them.It's amazing what all that completely ineffective,"only good for pinning fire",can do.Especailly when it is coming from many different angles.

[ April 25, 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: no_one ]

[Carl Puppchen]

A key element in your defensive setup is the "keyhole" effect and reverse slope defense. You don't want to open up with a defensive weapon and have the entire weight of the offensive force zero in on you. You want to shoot from the flank and / or pick off an exposed enemy and duck under cover.

Reverse slope is great for concentrating defensive fire on the mass of attackers at their weakest point, right as they cross into your LOS. It is keyhole in reverse.

But I have had terrible luck with retreating in CMAK. Usually a few panicked survivors with the dreaded "!" on them like a scarlet letter is all that gets away. I plan on most of my defenders to fight to the death, especially if they occupy territory like a trench. Your ruthless attacker will concentrate everything on you as you bug out and are at your weakest.

The only luck I have with retreating is when I use TD's and they "shoot and scoot" and then drive away before the barrage hits or the enemy concentrates their assets. I find that infantry is too exposed to get away unless the terrain is extremely dense (i.e. deep forest) and even then it is difficult to get away without huge casualties.

I do "bug out" when I see a barrage coming when I am in the trees and not in a trench if I can. But usually guys setup in trees without a covered retreat approach are dead, anyways.

I think retreating under fire with infantry and anything but pretty heavily armored TD's is more of a theory than something I can pull off in practice against a human, such as fighting with Marders on defense

[Cannon-fodder]

Retreating isn't hard as long as you're set up correctly - no perching in exposed tree islands. Make sure that you can cut LOS in about 40m - any more and you can't do it. Such a cut in LOS can be achieved either with woods/tall pines etc. or a hill line, or with, even better, a reverse slope. Simply open up at 100-150m with your infantry, then bug out the next turn. Occupy the reverse slope and then when your opponent drifts over, thinking he's forced your men to rout, hit him with everything. You aren't always in a position to do this, but it's hilarious when it works:)

[Falcon988]

There are certain scenarios where it's practically impossible as well. For instance in many Africa battles. Currently I'm playing a scenario where I'm assaulting a trench network in the desert with ground so flat it's like a table. One can literally see from one end of the map to the other. In that kind of terrain it's best for the defenders to fight to the death in the trench because the minute they pull out they'll be killed.

[throwdjohn]

i saw someone write that only withdraw from 75mm He chuckers or bigger. was sub 75mm that inneffective against infantry?

[coe]

I wonder how the germans held out against massed russian attacks when artillery was scarce - what were the actual ranges they opened up and did they inflict massive casualties opening up at longer ranges?

The problem is on these maps that you sometimes have to halt an attack from prepared positions, when you are outnumbered...that is you can't just fire one turn then bug out to another position after a minute and repeat (you'd run out space or lose your objective).

in this problem you face having to fall back after holding a position for a bit of time and having the enemy attack develop after the initial contact (this is akin to the - you must hold for 15 minutes so that the HQ can escape type of deal)

Conan

Conan