Duke of Earl Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Bonjour fellas, ...All of the units immediately jumped up on the top of the bridge when they crossed it, even though it was 4 height units up. The ski troops that were running immediately became exhausted as soon as they touched the bridge. (I guess it's tough jumping up 10m or more and cross country skiing on pavement.) The troops that were moving fared much better. None of them lost their skis, and they all return to river level once they were across the bridge...Well, I guess that answers the question 'what happens to an infantry squad that falls (or jumps) off a 10 meter bridge into a dry gully with a frozen stream on a fine winter's day?'... no injuries whatsoever... or maybe this only applies to the uberFinns?.... hahahahahahahaha By the way, I don't know why they couldn't ski through the arch under the bridge... I definitely saw T-34's driving through the arch in my scenario like it was an interstate overpass... Cordialement, Duke of Earl [ January 09, 2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Duke of Earl ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalifVol Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I hate to point out the obvious. A World War II tank that falls off a bridge is a +90% chance for total incapicitation for the length of the game. This of course assumes falling off a bridge means a sudden loss in heigth. World War II tanks did not have modern day suspensions. If you want to see a obsolecent suspension that would mimick World War II technology then look at a T-62, M-60, or Chieftan tank. Looking at T-72's, M-1's, or Challengers current reaction to impact would be missleading. However, do note the damage examples listed here that did happen on new techonolody systems, they are very relevant to the discussion. I have worked on the older systems and have had many conversations with Sherman tank crewman and a couple with some Panzer crewman. These are vehicles where a large diameter one foot hole in the ground suddenly appearing in front of a tank doing 20 MPH could cause serious damage to the tank or crew if they are not avoided. WW II medium tanks, except for some great publicity shots, do not jump like today's tanks. Driving away after falling off a bridge that is tall enough to drive under is just not in the realm of likely possibilities. Some observations, knocking a tank off a bridge with it moving sideways means one track will go first, then the belly hits the bridge. To continue to push the tank sideways off the bridge is most likely going to roll it. Rolled tanks do not normally just drive away (though on rare occassion conceptually it can.) If you roll the tank with the added impact of a drop, the tank is just done for within the time span of the game. Assuming the tank landed right side up, there can be sight alignment damage, rarely but conceptually you can pop the turret off the hull, the suspension can be destroyed in the process, the track can be thrown off, the engine or transmission can be dismounted, massive fuel leaks can result, the rolled vehicle can catch fire (esp. Germans as they use Gasoline), if the gun is rolled into the ground it will create issues besides dirt in the tube as it very likely will damage/destroy the recoil system or exascerbate turret damage, WW II tank ammunition is percussion detonated the ammunition on board the tank can actually just explode in this process and all this before you get to the crew that didn't have safety belts and was thrown about the inside of the tank as it rolled and dropped. If you want to see what its like to be inside a metal object that is dropping put molded jello in a lunch box and drop it three feet, then open the box up and take a look inside. If the tank drives off the bridge (i.e. goes head first or tail first) then the issue becomes height. If the height is sufficent to where the tank will decend at a 70% angle (3 meters for sure will do that) then its guranteed that the tank will come to a very dramatic and sudden stop. If the angle its going down is less than 70% then maybe its going to drive (i.e. roll on its tracks) upon impact. In that case the issue of damage becomes a more and more open discussion assuming a minor drop. If the height is such that the tank has hit bottom while the back half of the tank is still on the bridge there will be far less damage than if the tank had gone into a free fall. However, the game discussion here is of tanks off bridges greater in heigth than the tank. Geeze, how many tanks in the game were operational after that? I doubt a human in the tank could have survived the drop (Why would they have remained in the tank if they were being pushed by friendlies?) Ok, so we take a WW II tank and drive it nose first off a 4 meter height. Great, lands nose first and knocks all the cannon sights wacky. Its going to drive that lead suspension wheel on the front of the tank back toward the first road wheel and bust the mount (Assuming a tank with the idler infront of the forward edge of the glacis, i.e. a T-34), you can scrape the crew off the armor plate they had to cushion their fall, in addition to the guranteed results above you can have all the same damage as present in a roll over. You cetrainly aren't going to have three operational T-34's, there's an obvious error in the game program. Two quick war stories- I was on an MTLB (Russian PC) driving at night. We hit a 3 meter deep anti-tank ditch. We were moving at about 10 MPH under total black out with no night vision devices. We went into the ditch at 10 MPH. We medivaced three men off the vehicle owing to the resulting injuries. The MTLB had minor running gear damage. However, we were knocked out of action for four hours. I have seen an M-60 tank hit a two foot high berm while doing about 15 MPH. It seared the right compensating idler wheel off the tank and the right track went to the ground with it. Plus the crew was in shock for a good 30 minutes. So, yea, I'd agree there appears to be a glich if tanks fall off bridges and remain operational in the game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke of Earl Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Bonjour fellas, ...However, the game discussion here is of tanks off bridges greater in heigth than the tank. Geeze, how many tanks in the game were operational after that?...Answer: All of them were FULLY operational... and if the AI could have gotten them out of that gully, they would have caused a lot of trouble for me... By the way, CalifVol, well written post... Cordialement, Duke of Earl 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 CalifVol you wouldn't happen to be at good ole Ft. Irwin would you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalifVol Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 I was at Ft. Irwin 81-83 and 84-87. I lead the very first OPFOR meeting engagment against bluefor. In that engagment I took one of my MRC's (no tanks) against a Mechanized Infantry Battalion Taskforce. The result? I lost 6 BMP's versus destroying 17 M-60's, 24 M-113's, and 10 ITV's, plus chasing that entire Taskforce from east of the Whale to completely out of the Valley of Death. On top of that by the time we chased them out of the Valley we were out of ammo, they were just too terrifed to stop and take a shot at us. The controllers finally stopped us when it began to look like they were running them all the way back to the cantonement area. One might say that the element of surprise and Elan of the OPFOR can be decisive in the mock combat of the NTC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 I found that too here in Hohenfels. We constantly had situations in which one BMP would be dispatched to situations in which BLUEFOR would have sent a platoon. I think that was the ratio that a BLUE Lt. once said they considered us. I was a squad leader (which translated to MRP commander) and have personally killed platoons in single engagements and companies in the course of an MRR attack. Not because of my great equipment but because my first instinct was always to attack. Sorry to the rest of you, OPFOR rantings. I know many people have commented on the toughness of modern vehicles vs WWII but they can be pretty fragile as well. It was not unusual to see, or rather hear, torsion bars on an M60 snap while the tank was sitting in the motor pool. Also I can't even count how many road wheels (sometimes in pairs complete with the hub) and sprockets have flown off during a mission. Remember we are talking about a lot of metal under a lot of stress. They break under normal conditions much less something as traumatic as falling any appreciable height. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hortlund Posted January 10, 2003 Share Posted January 10, 2003 ClifVol, excellent post. Really interesting reading. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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