Infantry gun availability and deployment.

[Apache]

I am trying to getter a better feel for the use of the above, mainly for Heer but also for SS Pzr Gr at both the company and battalion level.

As the war progressed I am working on the assumption that SS Pzr would have had less use for IGs because of their need for mobility. I am also assuming that, except of defence, Stugs took over a lot for the Heer as they became more common.

In particular I am keen to differntiate between the use of the 75mm IG 1918 and the 75mm Howitzer. Who had them, how many and what for? At present I tend to deploy few 75mm Hoitzers on map, trating them as higher level assets behid the lines with fire called in by an FO. I use mainly IG 1918s when I take 'on-map' but am wondering whether I am depriving my troops of the better weapon as the war progressed? When using on-map IGs were the 75mm howitzers as common as IGs or were they totally different?

Finally 88s. Presumably a lot less in number and AFAIK the 88 flak were not concentrated in and around Berlin. Is that correct? If not, were there many instances (in the CMBB theatre) of 88 Flak being used in the AT role as opposed to the 88 PAK 43. If so, again, numbers, availability and who would get them.

Any views welcome?

[ February 03, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Apache:

I am trying to getter a better feel for the use of the above, mainly for Heer but also for SS Pzr Gr at both the company and battalion level.

I am not aware of Panzer Grenadier organisations that used towed IGs; that's not to say it never happened, but it's not mentioned in TM-E 30-451.

The leIG 18 is a regimental support weapon. The general rule for German infantry regiments up to and including the 1944 pattern is that each regiment has a regimental howitzer company, consisting of four firing platoons. Three of these have two 7.5cm leIGs and the fourth has two 15cm sIGs, for a total of 6 7.5cm and 2 15cm infantry guns. This company is called the 13th company by tradition, even if there are fewer than 12 rifle and weapons companies in the regiment; in the same way, the anti-tank company is called 14th company.

In CM:BB terms, this means that a battalion could reasonably expect a platoon of IGs or sIGs supporting it, more if it's lucky; a company would be lucky even to see one platoon.

The Volksgrenadier organisation actually involves an even more lavish issue of 7.5cm IGs, with 4 in the heavy weapons company of each battalion and a further 4 in the howitzer company, together with 8 12cm mortars instead of the 15cm sIGs.

In CM:BB terms, this gives every rifle company a reasonable expectation of having a platoon of two 7.5cm leIGs assigned to it.

For panzergrenadiers, the 13th company might have 6 self-propelled 15cm sIGs. In the case of half-track mounted panzergrenadiers, 7.5cm-armed "Stummel" half-tracks would be issued to the battalions, say 2 per rifle company, and 6 in the heavy weapons company.

Originally posted by Apache:

In particular I am keen to differntiate between the use of the 75mm IG 1918 and the 75mm Howitzer. Who had them, how many and what for?

[snips]

I have never heard of a German 7.5cm howitzer that wasn't an infantry gun, so I assume that the "75mm howitzer" in CM:BB is supposed to represent Feldkanonen of various kinds. These are field artillery weapons, and so you should not see them in the direct-fire battle unless something has gone horribly wrong. If you do include them in a CM:BB battle, then it would make sense to have the whole battery deployed, presumably fighting in close defence of its own position.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

John.

[ February 02, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: John D Salt ]

[JasonC]

SS Pz Gdrs continued to use light IGs well into the late war. In mobile divisions of both SS and Heer, the 150mm sIG self propelled vehicles - Bison and Cricket and variants - replaced the heavy infantry guns in the regimental infantry gun companies. 6 per regiment. But the 75 leIGs continued to be used.

Self propelled 75s on halftracks were used by the *armored* panzergrenadiers, including the armored recon battalion. But remember that only a minority of Pz Gdrs, SS or otherwise, were half track mounted. The majority, motorized Pz Gdrs had towed 75 leIG, which could be farmed out 4 per battalion, excluding the armored Pz Gdr battalion (when present).

As for 75mm howitzers, the Germans did not have enough 105mm howitzers to equip every division with the TOE field artillery load out of 36 105s (plus 12 150s). They had large stocks of captured equipment, Russian and western, and made extensive use of it (all calibers).

The Germans made small numbers of 75mm field guns themselves - leFK 18 and leFK 38 - and larger numbers of 75mm mountain guns - Gebirges Geschutz 36 - for moutain infantry divisions. Of captured 75s, they used the famous "French 75", and Russians 76s. Czech Skoda 75s were also used.

You would be more likely to see 75mm artillery support (divisional battery type, rather than infantry guns), or on map 75mm howitzers, with mountain infantry or the Axis minor allies. But occasionally you might see them in "poor" German infantry divisions, where they would replace better 105s.

I hope this helps. On the main use of IGs, John has already said everything.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JasonC:

[snips]

The majority, motorized Pz Gdrs had towed 75 leIG, which could be farmed out 4 per battalion, excluding the armored Pz Gdr battalion (when present).

TM-E 30-451 shows the heavy weapons companies of motorized PG battalions equipped with, among other things, 4 12cm mortars. It would make sense to me if these were being used to replace the 7.5cm IGs in the late war organisation.

As always with everyone's organisation tables (but especially the Germans), there is room for plenty of variation between units, and what we've discussed so far is just the basic outline.

To get an idea of the sort of variations possible -- it's the wrong theatre, but what the hell -- let's bimble through some of the infantry div orbats given in Nik Zetterling's excellent "Normandy 1944":

77 Inf Div has two regiments, one with 6 IGs in its 13th Coy and one with 2, and they are captured Russian weapons.

84, 85, 89 Inf Div appear to be "by the book", at least as far as IGs go.

243, 265 Inf Div had 13th Coys each with 6 captured Russian 7.62cm infantry guns.

266, 271 Inf Div appear to be "by the book".

272 Inf Div seems to have some extra 15cm sIGs which suggest perhaps a third gun in each of the heavy platoons.

275 inf div has only 2 7.5cm and 2 15cm guns per 13th Coy.

276, 277, 326 Inf Div appear to be "by the book".

331 Inf Div has two regiments with 13th companies of 4 7.5cm and 2 15 cm, and one with only 4 7.5cm.

343 Inf Div has one 13th Coy with 6 Russian 7.62cm infantry guns and two 13th coys each with 12 8cm mortars.

346 Inf Div appears to have had mortars instead of IGs in its 13th companies.

352 Inf Div has two 13th companies at "book" strength and one with only 2 7.5cm and 2 15cm.

353 Inf Div has two 13th companies each with 2 15cm and 5 7.5cm IGs, and one with 2 15cm and 4 7.5cm.

363 Inf Div appears to have 13th Coys each with 2 15cm and 2 7.5cm.

708 Inf Div has two regiments with a 14th Coy but no 13th, and one with a 13th but no 14th.

709 Inf Div has only one regiment with a 13th company, and that has 6 captured Russian 7.62cm infantry guns.

711 and 716 Inf Divs seems to have had no IG companies at all.

Recall that these are the strengths reported at the start of the Normandy campaign; one might expect still greater variations from the "book" strength after a unit has been engaged in protracted combat operations.

This huge variability means that one can justify, for CM:BB purposes, seeing a unit's IGs at full strength, or even reinforced with a few extras, or under strength, or missing entirely, or replaced by mortars. If the game engine allowed it, the other option would be to have them replaced by captured kit.

All the best,

John.

[Olle Petersson]

The 75mm howitzer in the game has characteristics close to the 75L18 mountain gun, used by mountain divisions.

Another common 75mm artillery piece was the FK40, a PaK40 on a carriage that allowed high trajectories. These were mainly used by cavalry divisions.

Cheers

Olle

[JasonC]

Quite right. If you look at the mobile divisions on the same site, you will see e.g. that 9th SS had 150 self propelled, 6 per regiment, and also 75 leIG towed, 4 per battalion, except the 2nd of the 20th had only 3, and the armored 3rd of the 20th had 5 75mm halftracks and 2 towed 75 IGs. Notice also that the armored battalion, with more 75s in Sf form, has fewer 81mm mortars.

Shortages, substitutions, variations - are normal enough. But German infantry of whatever kind, at whatever date, generally had some sort of HE heavy weapons support, between battalion mortars and divisional artillery. With 75mm IGs the numerically most common version.

[Apache]

Thanks for the info guys, very useful. I am trying to get a base line for both a 'vanilla' Heer Infantry Bn and an SS Armoured Pz Gr Bn.

Going on the above, both would be more likely to have 105 than 75mm with both of these generally being off-map arty (the 75 being an arty weapon rather than IG). However for Heer esp, towed IG would be more common.

A Heer Bn could expect up to 4 IGs to be available or platoon of sIGs (4?) later. SS same unless armoured when they would perhaps have up to 5 x 75mm in HTs instead + perhaps 2 towed IGs?