von Lucke Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Roight, then: Because I'm just that kind of obsessive / compulsive kind of guy, I've put together an alternative selection of German officer's headgear. This mod replaces the standard Wehrmacht officer's peaked cap with silver piping (schirrmutze), with the "old-style officer's cap" (Offizierfeldmutze alterer Alt). Hmph! Just look at this snot-nosed young pup! Since it lacked the metal crown stiffener, this is the officer's cap often seen crushed, bent, and pulled down around the ears of field-grade German officers huddled over maps 100m from the front line. While no longer officially issued after 1935, many officers still cherished these hats as symbols of their "old-school" status. While these caps came without the aluminum chin-strap seen on the later schirrmutze, it was common for German officers to add them on, so I've included a version with same ("strap"). I've also included a version with just the silver button used to attached the chin-strap, with the strap removed ("button"). And, of course, the no-frills original version ("plain"). Hardened veterans, ready for battle! All three come in Early- / Mid- / Late-war variants. Credits: Michael Dorosh for the original idea for this mod, and Andrew Fox for the original artwork I based this on. Get it Here 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Your cap doesn't seem to be pipped. Unfortunately Alter Art visor caps were also pipped. I think you should know that every German service had its own color (Waffenfarbe.) and ALL Heer visor caps were pipped in that color . Artillery caps were pipped in red, Medic ones in dark blue, Mountain ones in light green, Pioneer ones in black etc As it is right now, you cap seems to have something similar to a black pipping (if it hadn't any pipping then it would be incorrect.) That makes it a pioneer cap. Btw the game Schirmütze isn't pipped in silver, but in white for infantry. Please also notice that the Alter Art cap is already in game. The late war visor cap is in fact an Alter Art one or a Schirmütze without chin cords in order to look as an Alter Art one. The later one was very common late in the war. [ January 24, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Fernando ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 Originally posted by Fernando: Your cap doesn't seem to be pipped. Unfortunately Alter Art visor caps were also pipped. I think you should know that every German service had its own color (Waffenfarbe.) and ALL Heer visor caps were pipped in that color . Artillery caps were pipped in red, Medic ones in dark blue, Mountain ones in light green, Pioneer ones in black etcActually, I was aware of that. However, the one color photo of the alterer Art (and the many b&w) seem not to have any piping, so I removed it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egbert Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Caution Grog alert. Only the worst example of Grogism I've ever seen. While an example of artwork in the highest order, others without similar tendencies are warned to simply keep your distance.It might be catching. The World Health Organization has been alerted and special teams in biohazard gear will arrive shortly. Men with specially tailored white jackets with long sleeves will follow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Originally posted by von Lucke: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fernando: Your cap doesn't seem to be pipped. Unfortunately Alter Art visor caps were also pipped. I think you should know that every German service had its own color (Waffenfarbe.) and ALL Heer visor caps were pipped in that color . Artillery caps were pipped in red, Medic ones in dark blue, Mountain ones in light green, Pioneer ones in black etcActually, I was aware of that. However, the one color photo of the alterer Art (and the many b&w) seem not to have any piping, so I removed it. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Originally posted by von Lucke:Actually, I was aware of that. However, the one color photo of the alterer Art (and the many b&w) seem not to have any piping, so I removed it. [/QB]No WWII German visor/peaked cap was unpipped. Absolutely ALL of them were pipped. As Michael has already said, the Alter Art cap in your example was pipped. It's difficult to see what color is it. I don't agree with Michael about a Gebirsjäger/Panzergrenadier green. He could be right, but IMHO it looks too dark. The gebirsjäger green was in a lighter shade than the Panzergrenadier one. It looked as a light green in fact (I've some original Gebirsjäger shoulder boards in my collection.) The pipping of the Alter cap cap could be black (Pioneer), dark blue (Medic,) violet (Chaplain) or even dark green (some kind of Beamte, I think)though I doubt a Beamte had bought an Alter Art cap. Egbert, it doesn't matter if you think that my comment was the worst example of grogism you have ever seen. The true is that a German visor cap without piping looks as odd as a Soviet visor cap without a red star or an American oficer's visor cap without the golden American eagle. Please, notice that I didn't complained about the insignia or the side buttons (btw I've NEVER seen a pic of a German officer wearing buttons but no cords on his visor cap.)They were options chosen by von Lucke which were as good and correct as any other option chosen by another modder. However a German visor cap without pipping is as wrong as a PzKpfw IV without side turret hatches. It might look cool but it would be absolutely incorrect. [ January 26, 2003, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Fernando ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Originally posted by Fernando: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by von Lucke:Actually, I was aware of that. However, the one color photo of the alterer Art (and the many b&w) seem not to have any piping, so I removed it. No WWII German visor/peaked cap was unpipped. Absolutely ALL of them were pipped. As Michael has already said, the Alter Art cap in your example was pipped. It's difficult to see what color is it. I don't agree with Michael about a Gebirsjäger/Panzergrenadier green. He could be right, but IMHO it looks too dark. The gebirsjäger green was in a lighter shade than the Panzergrenadier one. It looked as a light green in fact (I've some original Gebirsjäger shoulder boards in my collection.). [/QB]</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 26, 2003 Author Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Fernando: Please, notice that I didn't complained about the insignia or the side buttons (btw I've NEVER seen a pic of a German officer wearing buttons but no cords on his visor cap.)They were options chosen by von Lucke which were as good and correct as any other option chosen by another modder. However a German visor cap without pipping is as wrong as a PzKpfw IV without side turret hatches. It might look cool with it would be absolutely ahistorical. D'oh! After doing a bit more research, it appears you are correct about the waffenfarbe. Logically enough, some indication of branch would be present, I suppose. As for the pic of a German officer's cap with just the chin-strap button, I direct you to Hans von Luck's (oddly enough) bio Panzer Commander: There is a photo of him in profile, wearing a shirrmutze, and it clearly shows said button with the strap removed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 von Lucke, will you redo the bmps? Is so send me a copy since I was going to CMMOS them as part of the German Uniform rule-set. MikeT 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Egbert: Caution Grog alert. Only the worst example of Grogism I've ever seen. While an example of artwork in the highest order, others without similar tendencies are warned to simply keep your distance.It might be catching. The World Health Organization has been alerted and special teams in biohazard gear will arrive shortly. Men with specially tailored white jackets with long sleeves will follow. Are such comments really necessary? I thought the Peng threads were for this kind of thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Whoah! At no point did I compare Weisengrun as worn by panzergrenadiers to hellgrun was worn by Mountaint troops. I said Jäger and Gebirgsjäger - not panzergrenadiere! [/QB]You are right indeed, Michael. You never compared them. I read it the wrong way . People usually get confused with the Jäger/Gebirsjäger light green and late war Panzergrenadier mid green, but I should have noticed the first time I read it that a grog like you never would do an error like that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by von Lucke: As for the pic of a German officer's cap with just the chin-strap button, I direct you to Hans von Luck's (oddly enough) bio Panzer Commander: There is a photo of him in profile, wearing a shirrmutze, and it clearly shows said button with the strap removed. [/QB]Thanks for pointing it up. That's the reason I didn't complained about it in my first message. It was possible. There were hundred of thounsand oficers in the German army, so anything was possible. Well, anything but unpipped visor caps . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Fernando: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Whoah! At no point did I compare Weisengrun as worn by panzergrenadiers to hellgrun was worn by Mountaint troops. I said Jäger and Gebirgsjäger - not panzergrenadiere! You are right indeed, Michael. You never compared them. I read it the wrong way . People usually get confused with the Jäger/Gebirsjäger light green and late war Panzergrenadier mid green, but I should have noticed the first time I read it that a grog like you never would do an error like that [/QB]</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: No, but you've got the colours backwards. The panzergrenadiers wore the lighter green (lime green), and mountain troops and light infantry wore the darker (medium) green. I have that direct from Ron Volstad. [/QB]I'm afraid you are wrong. Check Angolia (vol. 1, pages 306 to 361.) It's more authoritaive than Ron Volstad, I guess Light green (Hellgrün) was used by Jäger and Gebirsjäger while grass green (Wiesengrün) was used by Schützen and Panzergrenadier. Please take notice that the final shade varied from manufacturer to manufacturer and from dye lot to dye lot. [ January 26, 2003, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Fernando ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Fernando: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: No, but you've got the colours backwards. The panzergrenadiers wore the lighter green (lime green), and mountain troops and light infantry wore the darker (medium) green. I have that direct from Ron Volstad. I'm afraid you are wrong. Check Angolia (vol. 1, pages 306 to 361.) It's more authoritaive than Ron Volstad, I guess Light green (Hellgrün) was used by Jäger and Gebirsjäger while grass green (Wiesengrün) was used by Schützen and Panzergrenadier. Please take notice that the final shade varied from manufacturer to manufacturer and from dye lot to dye lot. [/QB]</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Hmmm, checking the plates in DEUTSCHE UNIFORMEN, and my own website, it lists Hellgrün as a light shade - but this is in comparison to the green used by Beamten. I am under the impression that weisengrün was lighter still. The period colour references seem to have been printed before 1942 (ie before the switch from rose pink to the new colour for panzergrenadiers). I know Ron has done extensive research into this, and he says most internet sources - and even printed references - get this wrong. I'll have to find out what his sources are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Does yours have colour plates? :confused: [/QB]Yes. There are colour plates at the start of the chapter (pages 308 and 309) Angolia says they were taken from original swatches. There are three shades of Jäger/Gebirsjäger light green and two shades of Schützen/Panzergrenadier grass green. It looks as if the first one became lighter and more yellower as war went on while the later gren became a bit darker and more bluish. In sort. It seems that from 1943 onwards (at least) the Jäger/Gebisrjäger green was in a lighter shade than the Panzergrenadier one, but it was fairly dark during the prewar and early war period. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H42548.html Unfortunately, this site doesn't allow remote linking. It shows what it purports to be a "Jaeger" cap, note the shade of green. As incredible as it seems, I am told that Angolia and Brian Davis both got the colours mixed up. The above is the only photo I can find online of an actual garment, as opposed to someone's Idea of what the colours should look like. It is possible the owner of this cap has misattributed it of course, or it is one of the funny dye lots we both know existed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Then again, THIS is listed as a Mountain troop M44....grrr... But the site also says "These straps appear cleaner than the tunic and are therefore considered correct, but replaced original components." Just by way of comparison, this is the Beamten insignia, showing how dark the green was for them. By comparison, both the lime green and "light" green shown above are lighter than this. [ January 26, 2003, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Hellgrün = light green Wiesengrün (and not 'Weisengrün') = meadow green (meadow = Wiese) I would expect that the latter is darker, but the Wehrmacht may well have thought differently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: Hellgrün = light green Wiesengrün (and not 'Weisengrün') = meadow green (meadow = Wiese) I would expect that the latter is darker, but the Wehrmacht may well have thought differently. Yes, thanks for the spelling - I obviously wasn't paying close attention, note the umlauts in other words I was too lazy to put in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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